Record Battles

Exel · 10-08-2003, 14:48

Man has fought a lot during his history, but what are the record keeping battles of all times?

History's largest amphibious invasion during Operation Overlord in Normandy, and history's largest tank battle in Kursk - where Zhukov met Germany's last major offensive in the Eastern front - are the widely known ones, but what about the rest?

The largest naval battle? The biggest tank engagement (largest number of tanks simultaneously engaging each other)? The biggest air fight? The biggest siege? The battle with most men? The battle with most casualties?

Exel · 10-08-2003, 14:48

My two cents for the thread:

Largest fight in the history of Scandinavia was fought at Tali - Ihantala in Finland in 1944, when the Soviet Union lauched it's grand offensive to defeat Finland. Despite the overwhelming numerical superiority the Russians had, the Finnish defense line (in the vinicity of Tali and Ihantala) held and the Red Army offensive came to a halt.

The battle was also one of the biggest of World War 2, being larger than for example El Alamein.

Some numbers:

The Red Army had over 200 artillery pieces per front kilometer, whereas Finnish troops had 4-6. The Soviets also had over 1500 aircraft against 90 Finnish and 70 German planes. In addition the Russians had about 450 tanks and assault guns versus a handful of Finnish vehicles. And last but not least, Soviet Union had three times more men in the battle, 150000 against 50000.

Exel · 11-08-2003, 11:40

Maybe this should be moved to the general history area instead of Post 1819.

*Dark Knight* · 11-08-2003, 13:04

Quote:

Originally posted by Exel
Maybe this should be moved to the general history area instead of Post 1819.

Moved.

Singleton Mosby · 11-08-2003, 14:58

Quote:

The biggest air fight?

The battle of Britain.

Singleton Mosby · 11-08-2003, 15:01

Quote:

The battle with most men?

What do you meen by battle, If you consider the three month WWI and WWII battles waht about the Somme.
Otherwise I presume Waterloo.

Singleton Mosby · 11-08-2003, 15:02

Quote:

The biggest siege?

That must be Stalingrad.

Singleton Mosby · 11-08-2003, 15:04

Ain't it better to convert the question to pre-1900. (this makes it all a lot more interesting)

Exel · 11-08-2003, 18:59

Quote:

Originally posted by Singleton Mosby
Ain't it better to convert the question to pre-1900. (this makes it all a lot more interesting)

Includes all of it. WW2 broke many records, but not all of them...

Quote:

The biggest air fight?
The battle of Britain.

That would be an air battle, not a fight.

Anyway, are you sure BoB was the biggest? How high up would eg. Coral Sea and Midway score (okay, they were technically naval, but were fought with planes)?

Zeppelin · 11-08-2003, 19:09

Quote:

Originally posted by Exel
Man has fought a lot during his history, but what are the record keeping battles of all times?

History's largest amphibious invasion during Operation Overlord in Normandy, and history's largest tank battle in Kursk - where Zhukov met Germany's last major offensive in the Eastern front - are the widely known ones, but what about the rest?

The largest naval battle? The biggest tank engagement (largest number of tanks simultaneously engaging each other)? The biggest air fight? The biggest siege? The battle with most men? The battle with most casualties?

Leyte Gulf....Kursk...Germany 1943-1944...Stalingrad or Verdun...Depends on whose sources you believe...Ditto

Singleton Mosby · 12-08-2003, 09:34

Quote:

Anyway, are you sure BoB was the biggest? How high up would eg. Coral Sea and Midway score

No, no, Bobwas really big but that of course only is when you count the battle,

Singleton Mosby · 12-08-2003, 11:48

Was Verdun a siege?

Exel · 12-08-2003, 17:54

Quote:

Originally posted by Zeppelin
Leyte Gulf....Kursk...Germany 1943-1944...Stalingrad or Verdun...Depends on whose sources you believe...Ditto

I was after some details as well. A simple list wont satisfy anyone's (at least not mine) information need.

Neree · 12-08-2003, 19:56

I think that the biggest cavalery charge was Jan Sobieskis at the battle to relieve vienna from Kara Mustafas forces.

Something of around 25.000 cavalerists were involved in several continous waves in an attempt to finish the battle before the nightfall.
Apparently It worked.¨

Have a nice day...

Singleton Mosby · 14-08-2003, 12:38

Read MHQ, military History quarterly(a magazine) It will tell you most of the answers.

VingTor · 14-08-2003, 17:36

Quote:

Originally posted by Singleton Mosby
Read MHQ, military History quarterly(a magazine) It will tell you most of the answers.

And where can that magazine be found? Do they have a web site?

Halibutt · 15-08-2003, 15:01

Solferino
Warsaw 1920

w_mullender · 15-08-2003, 15:13

Quote:

Originally posted by Zeppelin
Leyte Gulf

Leyte Gulf is definately not the biggest naval battle if you take the number of ships. I think that one has to be found between the 15th and 19th century. I dont know the numbers, but Lepanto, Trafalgar or one of the english-dutch-with some french battles.

Vandelay · 15-08-2003, 21:36

Battle of Ecnomus 256 BC, according to Polybius, featured 350 Carthaginian decked galleys against 330 Roman.

The bulk of these ships would have been quinqueremes. These had a complement of c. 300 rowers and 120 marines each which would mean that c. 200 000 men fought at Ecnomus!!

Is this the greatest naval battle (in terms of men) ever?

Cheers,
Vandelay

Hulaoguan · 17-08-2003, 07:54

Some big battles in Chinese history. I acknowledge that troops numbers may not be completely reliable, especially for battles far back in history, but this is the best I can find.

Land:

Pre Modern:

Large scale battles in Chinese history often occurred when a north China based dynasty tried to unify the country by invading the south.

The largest I can find occured in AD 383. King Fu Jian of Latter Qin dynasty ( which had unified the north of China) led 900,000 troops in an invasion of the Easterm Jin dynasty which controlled the southern China. Fu Jian, who was from a non Han tribes, led a polygot of nationalities against the Han Chinese based Eastern Jin. Eastern Jin under General Xie An fielded 200,000 - 300,000 troops in defence.

Unfortunately for FuJian, he lost the critical battle of Feishui against the better trained Eastern Jin troops. By the time the battle was over his vast army had been scattered and he had about 100,000 left. His dynasty collasped in chaos as a result.

A more successful southern invasion occured in AD 588. The Sui dynasty in the north invaded the Chen dynasty in the south with 510,000 troops. Chen dynasty lost and Sui managed to unify China.

Sea: No figures on troops numbers here, but the largest sea battles must be those fought between the Mongol invasion fleets and the Japanese. The Mongols despatched nearly 1000 ships in their invasion.

Modern times:

Largest must be the battle of Huai Hai, fought around the city of Xuzhou in from Nov 1948 to Jan 1949. The CCP fielded about 600,000 troops against about 600,000 from the Nationalists.
CCP won the battle, killing or captureing 550,000 KMT troops.

The final attack across the Yangtse by CCP forces in April 1949 probably involved nearly 1 million men vs 700,000 on the Nationalist side.

10-08-2003, 14:48	#1
Exel Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Finland Posts: 2,312	Record Battles Man has fought a lot during his history, but what are the record keeping battles of all times? History's largest amphibious invasion during Operation Overlord in Normandy, and history's largest tank battle in Kursk - where Zhukov met Germany's last major offensive in the Eastern front - are the widely known ones, but what about the rest? The largest naval battle? The biggest tank engagement (largest number of tanks simultaneously engaging each other)? The biggest air fight? The biggest siege? The battle with most men? The battle with most casualties?

11-08-2003, 15:04	#8
Singleton Mosby CSA Army: Lt.Col. of Guerillas Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Mosby's Confederacy, Guerilla territory, VA. CSA Posts: 6,710	Ain't it better to convert the question to pre-1900. (this makes it all a lot more interesting) __________________ My HOI3 Preview, Beta AARs and Review AARlander Writing-contest Organizer Former Editor in Chief of the AARland 'Advocate' ✠ With SS-Wiking through Russia ✠ My Old AARs: (old-HOI2) 'Wiking' through Russia..........The Lost Kingdom (CK) Only You Can Save Mankind(SF-HOI2-AAR) .......... 'Riders of the Storm': A post Appocalyptic AAR

12-08-2003, 11:48	#12
Singleton Mosby CSA Army: Lt.Col. of Guerillas Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Mosby's Confederacy, Guerilla territory, VA. CSA Posts: 6,710	Was Verdun a siege? __________________ My HOI3 Preview, Beta AARs and Review AARlander Writing-contest Organizer Former Editor in Chief of the AARland 'Advocate' ✠ With SS-Wiking through Russia ✠ My Old AARs: (old-HOI2) 'Wiking' through Russia..........The Lost Kingdom (CK) Only You Can Save Mankind(SF-HOI2-AAR) .......... 'Riders of the Storm': A post Appocalyptic AAR

12-08-2003, 19:56	#14
Neree First Lieutenant Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Tel'aran'rhiod Posts: 207	Re: Re: Re: Record Battles I think that the biggest cavalery charge was Jan Sobieskis at the battle to relieve vienna from Kara Mustafas forces. Something of around 25.000 cavalerists were involved in several continous waves in an attempt to finish the battle before the nightfall. Apparently It worked.¨ Have a nice day... __________________ Fry- "Hey wait, I'm having one of those things...you know, a headache with pictures." Leela- "An idea?"

14-08-2003, 12:38	#15
Singleton Mosby CSA Army: Lt.Col. of Guerillas Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Mosby's Confederacy, Guerilla territory, VA. CSA Posts: 6,710	Read MHQ, military History quarterly(a magazine) It will tell you most of the answers. __________________ My HOI3 Preview, Beta AARs and Review AARlander Writing-contest Organizer Former Editor in Chief of the AARland 'Advocate' ✠ With SS-Wiking through Russia ✠ My Old AARs: (old-HOI2) 'Wiking' through Russia..........The Lost Kingdom (CK) Only You Can Save Mankind(SF-HOI2-AAR) .......... 'Riders of the Storm': A post Appocalyptic AAR

11-08-2003, 11:40	#3
Exel Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Finland Posts: 2,312	Maybe this should be moved to the general history area instead of Post 1819.

15-08-2003, 15:01	#17
Halibutt Marshal of Poland Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Karma Café, Warsaw Posts: 3,074	Solferino Warsaw 1920 __________________ You forgot Poland now version 1.0 (Sept.11) Originally posted by Juu: The Soviets won the war. We happened to be nearby.

15-08-2003, 21:36	#19
Vandelay CEO Vandelay Industries Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 1,406	Battle of Ecnomus 256 BC, according to Polybius, featured 350 Carthaginian decked galleys against 330 Roman. The bulk of these ships would have been quinqueremes. These had a complement of c. 300 rowers and 120 marines each which would mean that c. 200 000 men fought at Ecnomus!! Is this the greatest naval battle (in terms of men) ever? Cheers, Vandelay

17-08-2003, 07:54	#20
Hulaoguan Captain Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Singapore Posts: 486	Some big battles in Chinese history. I acknowledge that troops numbers may not be completely reliable, especially for battles far back in history, but this is the best I can find. Land: Pre Modern: Large scale battles in Chinese history often occurred when a north China based dynasty tried to unify the country by invading the south. The largest I can find occured in AD 383. King Fu Jian of Latter Qin dynasty ( which had unified the north of China) led 900,000 troops in an invasion of the Easterm Jin dynasty which controlled the southern China. Fu Jian, who was from a non Han tribes, led a polygot of nationalities against the Han Chinese based Eastern Jin. Eastern Jin under General Xie An fielded 200,000 - 300,000 troops in defence. Unfortunately for FuJian, he lost the critical battle of Feishui against the better trained Eastern Jin troops. By the time the battle was over his vast army had been scattered and he had about 100,000 left. His dynasty collasped in chaos as a result. A more successful southern invasion occured in AD 588. The Sui dynasty in the north invaded the Chen dynasty in the south with 510,000 troops. Chen dynasty lost and Sui managed to unify China. Sea: No figures on troops numbers here, but the largest sea battles must be those fought between the Mongol invasion fleets and the Japanese. The Mongols despatched nearly 1000 ships in their invasion. Modern times: Largest must be the battle of Huai Hai, fought around the city of Xuzhou in from Nov 1948 to Jan 1949. The CCP fielded about 600,000 troops against about 600,000 from the Nationalists. CCP won the battle, killing or captureing 550,000 KMT troops. The final attack across the Yangtse by CCP forces in April 1949 probably involved nearly 1 million men vs 700,000 on the Nationalist side. Last edited by Hulaoguan; 17-08-2003 at 08:00.