GERMANY - New land doctrine discussion....

[Carroarmato-P40]

Here is something I was discussing earlier. Please elabourate and discuss:

Germany could pursue one of two differnt tiers of Land doctrine tech in a near end/post war scenario. As suggested below:


Tier one 'AVF & Elite troop presence superiority tier':

'Operational counter attack doctrine'
As mentioned, gains the following benefits.
- +5 org.
- +10 morale.
- Greater increase in counterattack event chance.
- Increased attack event chance.
- Increased breakthrough event chance.
- Increased delay event chance.
- Armoured, light armoured and mech units cheaper.

'Intergrated combined arms doctrine'
- +5 org.
- +5 morale.
- Increased attack event chance.
- Increased breakthrough event chance.
- Increased encirclement event chance.
- Increased tactical withdrawal event chance.
- TD's, sp art, sp rart and infantry cheaper.


Tier two 'Staatsangehöriger Krieg doctrine':

'Volksschlacht'
- +15 morale.
- Greater increase in ambush event chance.
- Greater increase in counterattack event chance.
- Increased delay event chance.
- Reduced costs and production time for infantry, militia, AT, ART and AA.
- (Is it possible to increase partisan activity vs enemy when on friendly territory?).

'Concentrated counter offensive doctrine'
- +5 morale.
- +10 org.
- Greater increase in counterattack event chance.
- Increased encirclement event chance.
- Increased breakthrough event chance.
- Increased attack event chance.
- Reduced cost of armour, Larm, mech, motor and reduced time for inf, art, rart, sp art, sp rart.



Right now i'm just throwing numbers around, but something like this, obviously both Spearhead HQ and Firebrigade will be required to access EITHER tier, and only one research path can be chosen, one or the other.



Other ideas include:
"Combined Arms Breakthrough"
"Flexible Mobile Defence doctrine"
"Complete Air-Ground doctrine"

*Note - few of these are my complete ideas, many are a meshing of various people's different ideas. My thanks to those who have given me ideas in which to elabourate!

[HMS Enterprize]

Im not usre I understand some of your ideas, to be honest...

Im not saying what you are suggesting is wrong or anything...its just that when I think of blitzkreig, the words 'counter offensive' and such dont really spring to mind...I always thought of blitz as more concerned with the offensive only....

So, I dont really have any suggestion as such but perhaps some information on the thoughts behind your ideas might be helpful.

That said, the 'Complete Air-Ground doctrine' idea sounds good. Basil liddell hart when coming up with his blitz style theories advocated the use of close air support as a replacement for sp arty.

Perhaps you could invent a land doctrine that gives a discount to CAS bombers?...how cool would that be...and there is some historical validity to this too!

[[B@W] Abominus]

"Staatsangehöriger Krieg doctrine" and "Volksschlacht"... what do you mean with this. I'm German and it hurts me to read this terrible german .

[Carroarmato-P40]

Well the emphasise on the 'counter attack' was because in the latter part of the war, the Germans were being hard pressed and often tried to gain ground in determined/concerted efforts to regain the initiative. Whether attacking or counter attacking, initiative is the key. Remember, a Blitz cannot be forever sustained.....

[Carroarmato-P40]

Originally Posted by [B@W] Abominus

"Staatsangehöriger Krieg doctrine" and "Volksschlacht"... what do you mean with this. I'm German and it hurts me to read this terrible german .

Well Volks Schlacht is 'People's Battle', I'm pretty sure about that one.
And "Staatsangehöriger" I think means like the State/nation in war. I dunno, I used a translator and it was ages ago. I'm an Australian Italian, I can't be expected to speak fluent German at 17... Can you help me maybe?

[[B@W] Abominus]

"Heimatverteidigung" ("Heimatverteidigungsdoctrin") may be good for "Volksschlacht" and "Staatsangehöriger"... difficult. Maybe I will have later the time to think about it.

Yes, german is not very easy, but it's also difficult for me to write good english.

[Hagen II]

"Nation in arms" would be Volkssturm or Landwehr (a 1814/15 concept)

For counterattack try "Gegenangriff aus der Nachhand", otherwise known as a backhand-slap or rabbit-punch.

This was Manstein's baby, and worked exceedingly well on an operational/tactical level against overextended spearheads.

I'm pretty sure I posted this before......

[Carroarmato-P40]

Oh yeah Landwehr, I forgot about that. Like a nation/people in arms! Niiiccee

[[B@W] Abominus]

I would like to see german spelled words for the spearhead doctrin. This looks more authentical, because only Germany uses the spearhead doctrin.

[Mork]

Wrong forum. The last thread was also placed into the enhacement sub-forum.

Oh, and the proposed doctrine is far to powerful. Remember that the new doctrines are actually on the very weak side of doctrines.

Edit: The "Grand Plan" doctrine tree has a +20% morale and org to artillery only. Weak. (though, I forsee this being exploited by some human player, infiltration infantry army with plenty of artillery)
Human wave, +30% morale to mecs and armour, also weak (they have plenty of morale as it is).
Firepower, +10% org and morale (and a cost reduction to cavalry, silly, but armoured cavalry will become even more popular), good, really useful, but not that strong.

Blitzkreig shouldn't have something that overpowers these. It would throw the balance off even more.

I would say two options:

Vertical envelopement.
Tra: +15% morale
Tra: -1 ic
Par: -.5 ic

Peoples army.
Mil: +15% org
Mil: +15% morale
Inf: -.5 ic
Mil: -.5 ic

Mutual exclusive of course (one if the war goes well, one if the war goes... not so well).

Something like that.

[Mork]

Originally Posted by [B@W] Abominus

I would like to see german spelled words for the spearhead doctrin. This looks more authentical, because only Germany uses the spearhead doctrin.

Never gonna happen. And why should it? Why have a special case for Germany? More so now that every nation, with some work, can use it.
Besides, it might be that no other AI nation uses it, but a lot of nations can, even in the original HOI2.

[HMS Enterprize]

So, no one likes my CAS idea then?

Well, I say 'my idea'...I mean B.L.H's idea.

And also I think an important thing to remember is that any doctrines suggested should not really be based on a nation that is doing badly...

eg-We have- Blitzkrieg, then spearheads. The next doctrine should be a continuation of this, not something like Volkssturm or Landwehr. This doesnt fit the scheme of things...

And this certainly implies that doctrine will follow the idea that the germans will lose. If germany had been more successful, im sure a new blitzkrieg stage 2, 3, 4 etc would have been the next evolution rather than Volkssturm or Landwehr.

I know what I mean, Im not sure Im expressing myself adequately...

[Carroarmato-P40]

Originally Posted by HMS Enterprize

So, no one likes my CAS idea then?

Well, I say 'my idea'...I mean B.L.H's idea.

And also I think an important thing to remember is that any doctrines suggested should not really be based on a nation that is doing badly...

eg-We have- Blitzkrieg, then spearheads. The next doctrine should be a continuation of this, not something like Volkssturm or Landwehr. This doesnt fit the scheme of things...

And this certainly implies that doctrine will follow the idea that the germans will lose. If germany had been more successful, im sure a new blitzkrieg stage 2, 3, 4 etc would have been the next evolution rather than Volkssturm or Landwehr.

I know what I mean, Im not sure Im expressing myself adequately...

1: Well I like your CAS idea, it makes sense, however by the sounds of some of the posters, it seems that the new additions in Doomsday seem rather sucky, which isn't good...

2: That is why I suggested a duel tier research path, exclusive tho. Plus the thing with mobility it that the Germans, and maybe the Italians, are the only nations who can build enough armour/mot/mech to take advantage of it's benefits. By going down the Volksturm/Lanswehr & Concentrated Counter Offensive doctrine, a nation that doesn't have the capacity to wage a completely and fully mechanized portion of the army can hence take advantage of this 'poor man's blitzkrieg' tier. This also accomodates for someone not doing well as Germany, remember, your practically taking on the world here.... Plus if your are doing well, you take the other research path..

[Volt]

I don't think there should be anything like a Volkssturm or Nation in Arms doctrine. At least not for Germany exclusively. After all, Calling every citizen to arms is what every nation does that is losing a war, Soviets did it as well and there isn't a "Great Patriotic War" doctrine.
For that you could add an event for the major countries that reduce the costs of militia or improve their stats once the war is going down the tube (i.e. 40% nationals lost or something).
Nevertheless, you need some German doctrine after 1943, I like the "Gegenagriff aus der Nachhand" idea.
I'm pretty sure there has been a similar duscussion around some time ago

[Carroarmato-P40]

I do think a 'Great Patriotic War" doctrine would be rather fitting, since the Ruskies were in the edge of their pants at one stage....

[Brasidas]

That's a metaphor I've never heard before...

[von_Manstein11]

Originally Posted by Mork

Never gonna happen. And why should it? Why have a special case for Germany? More so now that every nation, with some work, can use it.
Besides, it might be that no other AI nation uses it, but a lot of nations can, even in the original HOI2.

It should be Germany becuase the theory of war used by the Germans were more advanced then any other nation (with the exception of USSR) and the Men who were behind this were used by the Americans after the war to further deveop this theortetical way of war for there own gains.

[Mork]

Originally Posted by von_Manstein11

It should be Germany becuase the theory of war used by the Germans were more advanced then any other nation (with the exception of USSR) and the Men who were behind this were used by the Americans after the war to further deveop this theortetical way of war for there own gains.

So, because they invented it, it should break with everythinmg else in HOI2?

A good thing those English invented so much of the modern warfare, otherwise noone would be able to find it's way around.

Would you have barrels instead of tanks aswell?

And the Human wave is Russian, the Grand warfare is French, and the superior firepower is US. SO I guess they all should have different names, and the human wave should be in cyrillic.

Everything is named in English for a reason.


Edit: Rockets should then also be in German, and what about submarines? Though they weren't invented by the Germans, they were mostly used by them, and highly perfected by them, so I guess it should also be unterseeboot?
Sorry, but I'd prefer consistency over national naming preference (which is, incidently, also Paradox's view, that and they want to avoid the resulting heated national pride debates).

[Codeman]

I always thought Grand warfare was british?

[Thistletooth]

Originally Posted by Carroarmato-P40

I do think a 'Great Patriotic War" doctrine would be rather fitting, since the Ruskies were in the edge of their pants at one stage....

Originally Posted by Brasidas

That's a metaphor I've never heard before...

That's because it doesn't exist. At least not in English. So therefore, it doesn't exist.

I think what our Australian-Italian (or Italian-Australian) friend is going for is "hanging by a thread" (almost gone), and is confusing that with "flying by the seat of one's pants" (doing something without any plans or foresight, usually because you don't know what you're doing).

As per the thread topic, I'm in full favor of a choice between a desperate Hitler-inspired "if the German nation is going to lose, the whole German population will go down with it" Volkssturm Uber Alles Doctrine (sizable boost to Morale and Hard Attack) and a more rational, Manstein-inspired Der Backhandenslappen Doctrine.