Participation in Game Project?

[Gratianus]

Originally Posted by Chaingun

Gratianus: Do you remember the per province koku production you posted a recently? I'd like something similar but for another year (preferably before the 1600s), like around 1500-1550 or so. The reason is, I'll be able to model linear economic growth rates with two data points (and I could experiment with an exponential model if I had more).

The one I could find was only this...
a koku transition of locality of Suou
1598 5300
1600 11901
1607 28325

Koku production was not surveyed nationwidely with an unified measur till "Taiko" hideyoshi did (1582-1598). Before Taiko, each clan surveyed territories with his own measure. So, I think we can not compare 1598 with pre-1582. And the comparable datas of pre-1582 hardly exist.

Sorry for my poor help.
If you want to Tenkatouitsu's settings (1545, 1565, 1572, 1582, 1586, 1598), I willingly get them together.
ref. a screen of the game
http://files.upl.silentwhisper.net/upload5/tenka.JPEG

[Chaingun]

Originally Posted by Gratianus

The one I could find was only this...
a koku transition of locality of Suou
1598 5300
1600 11901
1607 28325

Koku production was not surveyed nationwidely with an unified measur till "Taiko" hideyoshi did (1582-1598). Before Taiko, each clan surveyed territories with his own measure. So, I think we can not compare 1598 with pre-1582. And the comparable datas of pre-1582 hardly exist.

Sorry for my poor help.
If you want to Tenkatouitsu's settings (1545, 1565, 1572, 1582, 1586, 1598), I willingly get them together.
ref. a screen of the game
http://files.upl.silentwhisper.net/upload5/tenka.JPEG

It's okay as long as it's not game specific things (e.g. one can hardly be blamed for researching koku production ). Regarding settings, if that game has something like X koku in 1545, y 1565 etc. it would be nice to have them.

Regarding that single province you found multiple annual koku for; the data unfortunately seems pretty incohererent to me. Unless there was some massive agricultural revolution going on 1698-1607 I'd have a hard time believing that exponential increase.

However, I really don't need data for the entire province set. If you can just find some very few provinces (whose koku production increase seems more realistic ), I can use that to calculate the general increase and apply it to those koku data for each province you already supplied.

[Finnish Dragon]

I guess the weather had significant influence on crops. I think the typhoon season was the most important whether they had good crops or not. It could partially explain such drastic changes. I think for the game reasons, the koku values should be fixed. However, the player can invest to have better rice fields and also the weather has an influence on crops.

[Chaingun]

Originally Posted by Finnish Dragon

I guess the weather had significant influence on crops. I think the typhoon season was the most important whether they had good crops or not. It could partially explain such drastic changes. I think for the game reasons, the koku values should be fixed. However, the player can invest to have better rice fields and also the weather has an influence on crops.

Weather should be in, I agree, though the degree of typhoon effects should be researched. I just want to avoid turning the economy into something CK stylish though; EU2 had much more fun economy IMHO.

A more general update on my progress: I'm still working with the initial UI code (the base code becomes rather large even when you do simple things properly). I expect to be finished enough with that though soon enough; after that I'll plug in Gratianus new map and upload it for public viewing.

[Chaingun]

General update: Still working on some common engine code... Sorry for the delay but I'm rewriting parts of it, so any posted update will have to wait until tomorrow or Monday.

[SirCliveWolfe]

Originally Posted by Chaingun

General update: Still working on some common engine code... Sorry for the delay but I'm rewriting parts of it, so any posted update will have to wait until tomorrow or Monday.

No problem it sounds very promising at this stage.

[Gratianus]

Originally Posted by Chaingun

It's okay as long as it's not game specific things (e.g. one can hardly be blamed for researching koku production ). Regarding settings, if that game has something like X koku in 1545, y 1565 etc. it would be nice to have them.

Regarding that single province you found multiple annual koku for; the data unfortunately seems pretty incohererent to me. Unless there was some massive agricultural revolution going on 1698-1607 I'd have a hard time believing that exponential increase.

However, I really don't need data for the entire province set. If you can just find some very few provinces (whose koku production increase seems more realistic ), I can use that to calculate the general increase and apply it to those koku data for each province you already supplied.

Koku settings *1000 koku
(Max.) 1545 1565 1582
Dewa(693) 138, 207, 419
Musashi(990) 396, 594, 693
Echigo(780) 390, 468, 546,
Kai(260) 130, 156, 182
Yamashiro(230) 161, 184, 207
Izumo(260) 104, 130, 156
Harima(570) 228, 228, 513
Tosa(280) 112, 140, 168
Chikuzen(580) 290, 348, 464

Years ago, I questioned the auther of that game about Koku settings on the forum, because the game settings were different from Taikou Kenchi (1582-1598, investigations of productivity). He explained the results of Taikou Kenchi were somewhat doubtful. Compared with Shouhou era, investigations under Taikou Hideyoshi didn't come into effect strictly, because they included self-reports, especially in Echigo and Tosa. Buring Shouhou era, the 3rd shogun Tokugawa Iemitsu (grandson of Ieyasu) reigned, and new control was gone around. Therefore investigations were more reliable. He made a quess with the investigations of Shouhou Kenchi (1644-1648). I support this idea.

[Gratianus]

This is just a thought.
Typhoon ----- production dwon -1, incidence: Kyuushuu 60%, Shikoku 50%, Chuugoku (San'in, Sanyou) 40%, Kinki and Toukai 30%, Kantou and Chuubu 25%, Hokuriku and Touhoku 10%
drought　----- production dwon -1
long rain ----- production dwon -2, cause a famine ??%
heavy snow ----- incidence: Touhoku 80%, Hokuriku 70%, armies are forced to retreat

[Chaingun]

Originally Posted by Gratianus

Koku settings *1000 koku
(Max.) 1545 1565 1582
Dewa(693) 138, 207, 419
Musashi(990) 396, 594, 693
Echigo(780) 390, 468, 546,
Kai(260) 130, 156, 182
Yamashiro(230) 161, 184, 207
Izumo(260) 104, 130, 156
Harima(570) 228, 228, 513
Tosa(280) 112, 140, 168
Chikuzen(580) 290, 348, 464

Ok those numbers are good to make some sort of general growth projection. Keep in mind, I don't aim for totally accurate numbers here, just something that would seem feasable.

Don't get too excited about my new programming , very little visual output gets done as I write base code and not any game code.

[Chaingun]

General game design discussion again:

How closely should we model family ties and characters in general. In my opinion (comparing Paradox games again obviously ) CK was a bit too specific for my tastes. CK's system does not allow for any kind of historical "thread" like in EU2. On the other hand, it can be argued EU2's monarch and leaders are too static. If the Luxembourg performs a world conquest it will still have the same monarch file. Also I feel family bonds were significant enough in the Sengdoku period (though I'm not the expert...) to be modelled.

I found the model in Shogun: TW rather nice though simplistic. You start out as a clan's leader. You get sons at controlled random intervals through your early years that are added to the "leader pool". When your current leader (daimyo) dies in combat, is assasinated or by some random chance from old age, the next person in line to receive the throne are his mature sons in order of the oldest first. If all of these die without leaving new sons or haven't reached ~16 years of age, the oldest male relative inherits. However (and this is the important part to restrict the family tree), as up until a character becomes a clan leader, no sons are modelled for him. He gets a chance to have sons immediately once he becomes leader. (Since most people died relatively early by modern standards even in the nobility the assumption that there is no upper age bound of fertility makes sense. Pobability of birth might become much lower but not come close to 0 as to have a chance to save the player's clan.)

Rule summary:
Oldest son inherits if > 16 years of age, else other sons in descending order.
If no sons can inherit, the oldest relative inherits.

What I see as one advantage in this model is that family management is almost totally abstracted away from the player. Just make sure to keep enough male relatives alive any you're safe. In Shogun: TW this is not as easy as it sounds though because relatives are assigned as generals and thus risk death in battles... Of course, something similar can't be done for this game (a player could just hide a minimal army in a far away province if he was forced to use all relatives as generals). However, assasinations should still be an option.

Another big advantage is that of historicity. Using this limited model we can control it rather strictly and not let it completely wander off. We can assign historical names and properties for relatives born in a certain time intervals. Thus historical Imagawa, Shimazu, Takeda, etc. clan members can show up in the appropiate time periods. In reverse we don't need to do any (which I would guess is more difficult) research on females since they're not modelled. Sorry for any feminists out there but it I think they can be taken out of consideration for anything but historical events.

Still managing inheritors I think can become a significant part of the game. Unlike in CK where the after a couple of generations huge family tree will make losing the game very hard, the restriction of what births are modelled here makes the supply of relatives limited in some ways. Other suggestions include giving them chances to revolt if they feel ignored (not getting to lead armies/hold offices in combination with a slim chance of inheritance). Perhaps the player could be given the choice to bypass inheritance (if different candidates have different capabilities/experience), at the cost of strong discontent of those bypassed.

A disadvantage of the model is whether there is any justification for it at all. Basically I want to know (and maybe you can find out?), what the inheritance rules actually were in Japan in the Sengdoku era. What age was considered the smallest to inherit, or whether old age was considered a priority to having a closer genetic bond to the old ruler etc. I guess I can research some of this myself too but who'd know.

Due to it' simplistic nature there's also a problem of what family ties between clans can be represented and what vassal-liege relationships. It might be able to include some fun gameplay into elements into it still; one idea I have is that upon a relative upon reaching an age to marry the player gets to choose whether to ask another clan for bride or to marry into a local noble family of a province. Marrying local would perhaps cement the loyalty of a province (abstraction abstraction), while marrying another clan could include effects such as getting a chance to inherit when a clan's last alive character dies as well as simply improve relations (and have negative effects for a war ala royal marriage of EU2).

[SirCliveWolfe]

Haven't realy been able to find anything on inheritance during the period, however reading some things does lead me to surgest a name for the game;

Sengoku: Warring States of Japan

from this;

After the Onin War, the power of independent local leaders increased markedly, and in many instances deputies of great shugo houses usurped the domains of their superiors, retainers overthrew their overlords, and branch families seized power from main families. Because of this tendency for "inferiors to overcome superiors" (gekokujo), the previous shugo almost completely disappeared from Kyoto and the surrounding provinces; a new type of domain lord, the daimyo, took their place. Since this time was marked by constant warfare among many such lords, it is called the Sengoku ("Warring States") period, named for a somewhat similar period in ancient Chinese history.

from this article http://www.crystalinks.com/japan5.html

Shall now return to try and find inheritance rules...

[Finnish Dragon]

Inheritance rules are quite an interesting question. I would say that there were no inheritance rules in practice. Let´s look at couple of examples:

Shingen Takeda rose to power in a bloodless coup against his father. His father retired to Imagawa domains.

Tokugawa Ieyasu received the title Shogun in 1603 and he "retired" in 1605.

Uesugi Kenshin rose to power after a coup against his brother. Kenshin sheltered the defeated leader of Uesugi, Yamanouchi branch in a condition that his overlord would adopt him.

I would say in game the player should have a lot to say who will inherit him. However, the other candidates should have a hidden value, loyalty to see if the accept the inheritance. They either accept the inheritance or start rebellion.

[Chaingun]

To let player have free say that affects in-family standings is an interesting concept. Let's take the following situation as an example:

Y is the ruler, who has an older brother X and a younger brother Z. He has sons Y1 (oldest), Y2 and Y3 (youngest). Everyone will expect Y1 to inherit, though there may be some issues if he's too young (see paragraph below). However, if the player chooses Y2 or Y3 Y1 might be pissed off. The older X and Z may either be neutral or they can side with either sentiment (acception/rejection of decision). This way depend on some complicated formula based on loyalty and chance of success and own amibitions.

I still argue that we should make an age limit on inheritance which is rather tight. E.g. if a 5 year old inherits that would not have been expected, and even if not so his weak to non existent influence on the actual rulership would certainly cause an eagerness to overthrow him among ranks of ambitious relatives.

We can discuss the meaning of "revolts" and family "discontent" later on when we know more details about army leadership and province holdings.

How are Japanese family names structured? I think I've seen both names of the form "Imagawa X" and "X Imagawa" where X is the character's name in question. Secondly, we will need a list of random names to choose from for births of non-historical characters.

Clive: Sengoku: Warring States of Japan is not bad. It's definately a candidate though it's more or less as clear as "Anarachy in Japan".

On the programming: I just solved a code design issue I've been battling with since Saturday so the map update is underway + an incredibly ugly test UI.

[Finnish Dragon]

I agree with time limit on inheritance. If there was a child who inherited a fief then the regent or regents usually had the true power. However, you should remember Toyotomi Hideyori before the Sekigahara campaign. He was seven years old and Japan was ruled by regents.

I would write Japanese names by putting the family name first and then first name. It is true that the both ways are used but I think the family name first is more common and probably more official while first name first was probably among people who knew each other quite well.

[Gratianus]

Originally Posted by Chaingun

How are Japanese family names structured? I think I've seen both names of the form "Imagawa X" and "X Imagawa" where X is the character's name in question.

As Finnish Dragon said "putting the family name first and then first name" is better, I think.
And for reference, there were manners "Tsuuji" to make the child succeed to one character from generation to generation.
Takeda clan
Nobushige - Nobumori - Nubutsuna- Nubutora - Harunobu - Yoshinobu
Tokugawa clan
Ieyasu - Hidetada - Iemitsu -Ietusna - Tsunayoshi - Ienobu

Secondly, we will need a list of random names to choose from for births of non-historical characters.

I can get together hundreds random names.

[SirCliveWolfe]

Originally Posted by Chaingun

I still argue that we should make an age limit on inheritance which is rather tight. E.g. if a 5 year old inherits that would not have been expected, and even if not so his weak to non existent influence on the actual rulership would certainly cause an eagerness to overthrow him among ranks of ambitious relatives.

Perhaps if the players prefered candidate is under the age of inheritance he can appoint him and his regent;

ie. useing you'r exmple if Y1 is too young but the prefered the player can apoint either Y1 with X regent or Y1 with Z as regent.

I do not know how much this has a basis in the period but it did happen in European history.

Originally Posted by Chaingun

Clive: Sengoku: Warring States of Japan is not bad. It's definately a candidate though it's more or less as clear as "Anarachy in Japan".

Well Iv'e got to be useful for something

[Chaingun]

Okay, this is the latest version:

Download link

EDIT: I added Gratianus map, redownload if you want to see the changes.

It doesn't look to be one hell of a lot more than last release, but I can assure you much was added underneith.

(Oh I forgot to say last time that you can press Escape key any time during the program to exit, it's very handy before I implemented exit button. ) Also, make sure you click "singleplayer" and "start" to get to the meat...

@Gratianus: I didn't modify your BMP, I simply left out the too small islands instead. Keep it, because we might want to do more province divisions.

[Gratianus]

Originally Posted by Chaingun

Okay, this is the latest version:

Download link

EDIT: I added Gratianus map, redownload if you want to see the changes.

It doesn't look to be one hell of a lot more than last release, but I can assure you much was added underneith.

(Oh I forgot to say last time that you can press Escape key any time during the program to exit, it's very handy before I implemented exit button. ) Also, make sure you click "singleplayer" and "start" to get to the meat...

@Gratianus: I didn't modify your BMP, I simply left out the too small islands instead. Keep it, because we might want to do more province divisions.

Looks nice!

BTW, I've found a mistake.

Satsuma is absent!

"Wrong flag for the period, cool!!!!" LOL

[SirCliveWolfe]

Cool

Nice work... love the coppyright and the RHS menu, I feal that the date may be wrong I know just pointing out the obvious as usual.

Looks like a very good start...

Do you need help with the graphics? if so what format etc... I will try to track some down.

For the start screen flag how about;

[Gratianus]

Tentative
The background is japanese traditional "Kikkou Moyou (turtle shell)".