AGCEEP: China

[YodaMaster]

I didn't find any clearly devoted thread with "China" in title, so I started one...

It's really needed for China add-on issues.

I finally found the add-on related thread here.

About graphic sets, there is a nice set for chinese fleets available here: chilvl1.zip (preview in chilvl1.txt).
A more detailed set for chinese cities could be nice too. I will see when possible... EDIT: done! Available here.

[YodaMaster]

I assume all flags and shields for new countries (HAM, LGD, MEA, PRT and TAU) are available... Actually, vanilla ones for former countries with corresponding tag are used. "Frivolous" but weird, especially LGD (Languedoc) for me
New countries are not playable (not in selectable section of 1419 - The Grand Campaign.eug).
Btw too, what about 1520 scenario?

1419_ASS_Mongolia.inc and 1419_TAU_Shan.inc can be removed in AGCEEP\Scenarios\1419\

There is a conflict between 1419_ASS_Khalkha.inc and 1419_PRT_Oirat.inc
In 1419_ASS_Khalkha.inc:

    ownedprovinces = { 
        590 591 592 593 594 595 596 597 598 599 600 601 602 603 604 605 
606 607 608 609} 
    controlledprovinces = { 
        590 591 592 593 594 595 596 597 598 599 600 601 602 603 604 605 
606 607 608 609 } 
    nationalprovinces = { 
        591 592 594 596 597 599 601 602 603 605 607 648 645 644 }

In orange: conflict with Oirat => but something must be broken elsewhere too because Khalkha Mongols is not in game, even with modification... EDIT: I found it, line 2 of the file doesn't begin with # (better to remove crlf at the end of line 1)
In blue: wad?

With new Oirat, what about RussiaInMongolia and Russification events (new version in 1.38 now)..?

monarchs.chi is new and replaces vanilla's monarchs. Good.

U11, U12 and U13 already exist in revolt.txt. They just have to be replaced.

I added comments in text_csv_change.txt, first entries replace original ones and last entries beginning with EVENTHIST88888 are new.

I assume ids are not contiguous because of other add-ons:

    alliance = {
        id = { type = 9423 id = 39 }
        type = militaryalliance
        expirydate = { year = 1500 month = february day = 10 }
        participant = { CHI KOR HAM TAU }
    }

=> id could be 35

    alliance = { 
        id = { type = 6000 id = 52 }
        type = vassalization 
        expirydate = { year = 1491 month = august day = 15 }
        name = ""
        participant = { CHI LGD }
    }
    alliance = { 
        id = { type = 6000 id = 53 }
        type = vassalization 
        expirydate = { year = 1491 month = august day = 15 }
        name = ""
        participant = { CHI HAM }
    }

=> ids could be 45 and 46

I have no id conflicts nor errors at loading 1419 scenario. . First tests until october 1427.

About events in general, lack of deathdate in events when offset is used (so far, I don't know if all events are concerned or just a few)

About descriptions:
EVENTHIST88882 is too long. Some cuts to be made...
EVENTHIST88880, EVENTHIST88881, EVENTHIST88883, EVENTHIST88884, EVENTHIST10000, EVENTHIST3703 are very long (but no display problem in 1024x768, my config).

In 1419.inc Hanoi, Tanh Noah and Lao Cai exist as entries and must be replaced. But 800 revoltrisk is very high => permanent revolts in this area (wad, I presume). Anyway, in revolt.txt:

DAI = {
	date = { day = 10 month = january year = 1428 }
	expirydate = { day = 31 month = december year = 1820 }
	minimum = { 662 663 1554 }
	extra = { }
	capital = 662
	group = china
	ai = "daiviet.ai"
	}

=> Dai Viet is not a revolter and can't be released as vassal before 1428 => provinces could defect to bad countries (Champa and/or Lan Xang). Wad?

bug in

#Treasure Fleet policy debate#
event = {
	id = 10044
	random = no
	country = CHI
	name = "Treasure Fleet policy debate"
	desc = "EVENTHIST3703"
	style = 1
	date = { month = September year = 1424 } 
	action_a ={		
		name = "Suspend the activities of the fleet"
		command = { type = colonists value = -2 } 
		command = { type = merchants value = -2 } 
		command = { type = diplomats value = -1 } 
		command = { type = stability value = 1 }
		command = { type = land value = 2500 }
		command = { type = infra value = 2500 }
		command = { type = naval value = -3500 }
		command = { type = trade value = -1500 }
		command = { type = domestic which = MERCANTILISM value = -1 }
		command = { type = domestic which = LAND value = 1 }
		command = { type = domestic which = OFFENSIVE value = -1 }
		command = { type = clrflag which = treasure_fleet_voyages }
		command = { type = ai which = China_2RenZong.ai }
	}
	action_b ={		
		name = "Continue our expansion"
		command = { type = warships which = -1 value = 10 }  #-1 instead of -2 (Hebei as capital has no port => CTD avoided)
		command = { type = transports which = -3 value = 5 } 
		command = { type = colonists value = 2 } 
		command = { type = merchants value = 4 } 
		command = { type = diplomats value = 2 } 
		command = { type = land value = -1500 }
		command = { type = infra value = -1500 }
		command = { type = naval value = 2000 }
		command = { type = trade value = 1000 }
		command = { type = revoltrisk which = 60 value = 8 }
		command = { type = inflation value = 5 } 
		command = { type = treasury value = -800 }
		command = { type = ADM which = -2 value = 60 }
		command = { type = DIP which = 2 value = 60 }
		command = { type = setflag which = treasure_fleet_voyages }
	}
}

In 88881, name of action_b and action_d are too long. Proposition:

#Spread of Le Loi's Lam Son resistance against Ming rule in Vietnam#
event = {
	id = 88881
	random = no
	country = CHI
	name = "Spread of Le Loi's Lam Son resistance in Vietnam"
	desc = "EVENTHIST88881"
	style = 1
	
	date = { day = 1 month = may year = 1426 }
	
	action_a ={ 
	name = "Send Wang Tong to replace Chen Zhi"
	command = { type = treasury value = -80 } 
	command = { type = INF which = 662 value = 19500 } 
	command = { type = wakeleader which = 08848 } 
	}
	action_b ={ 
	name = "Listen to Confucian advisors and give up Jiao Zhi"
	command = { type = independence which = DAI }
	command = { type = secedeprovince which = DAI value = 662 } 
	command = { type = secedeprovince which = DAI value = 663 } 
	command = { type = secedeprovince which = DAI value = 1554 } 
	command = { type = relation which = DAI value = 100 }
	command = { type = badboy value = -1 } 
	}
	action_c ={ 
	name = "Send Zhang Fu again to lead a big army to crush the rebellion"
	command = { type = MIL which = -3 value = 72 }  
	command = { type = ADM which = -2 value = 72 } 
	command = { type = treasury value = -600 } 
	command = { type = INF which = 653 value = 50000 } 
	command = { type = CAV which = 653 value = 12000 } 
	command = { type = ART which = 653 value = 20 }
	command = { type = wakeleader which = 08850 } 
	command = { type = revolt which = 662 } 
	command = { type = revolt which = 662 } 
	command = { type = revolt which = 662 } 
	command = { type = revolt which = 662 } 
	command = { type = revolt which = 663 } 
	command = { type = revolt which = 663 } 
	command = { type = revolt which = 663 } 
	command = { type = revolt which = 663 } 
	command = { type = revolt which = 1554 } 
	command = { type = revolt which = 1554 } 
	command = { type = revolt which = 1554 }
	command = { type = revolt which = 1554 } 
	}
	action_d ={ 
	name = "Reform the administrative system"
	command = { type = setflag which = reformvietnam2 } 
	command = { type = domestic which = centralization value = -1 }
	command = { type = revoltrisk which = 72 value = 10 }
	command = { type = stability value = -1 } 
	command = { type = MIL which = -2 value = 72 }  
	command = { type = treasury value = -180 }
	command = { type = provincetax which = 662 value = -1 }  
	command = { type = provincetax which = 663 value = -1 } 
	command = { type = provincetax which = 1554 value = -1 } 
	}
}

No deathdate in #Rebellion of the Lord of Han 88883 or 88860 (btw, each event should sleep the other one).
If action_a is chosen, war is declared but because of vassalage broken, stability is not entirely recovered with "command = { type = stability value = 2 }" => -4 stability hit, big hole in treasury but CAV and INF
In action_b , Lord of the Han declares war himself but get bunch of CAV and INF (very weak the first month).
I don't know for others but action_b is a no brainer for me.

Bug in

#Truce with Le Loi#
event = {
	id = 88880
	trigger = {
		leader = 08848 
		}
	random = no
	country = CHI
	name = "Truce with Le Loi"
	desc = "EVENTHIST88880"
	style = 1
	
	date = { day = 1 month = October year = 1427 }
	offset = 60

	action_a ={ 
	name = "Wang Tong betrayal of the Empire cannot be undone. The people need peace."
	command = { type = independence which = DAI }
	command = { type = secedeprovince which = DAI value = 662 } 
	command = { type = secedeprovince which = DAI value = 663 } 
	command = { type = secedeprovince which = DAI value = 1554 } 
	command = { type = relation which = DAI value = 100 }
	}
	action_b ={ 
	name = "No. We must teach the rebels a bitter lesson."
	command = { type = sleepevent which = 88879 }
	command = { type = setflag which = 2ndwarvietnam } 
	command = { type = independence which = DAI }
	command = { type = secedeprovince which = DAI value = 662 } 
	command = { type = secedeprovince which = DAI value = 663 } 
	command = { type = secedeprovince which = DAI value = 1554 } 
	command = { type = MIL which = -3 value = 72 }  
	command = { type = ADM which = -2 value = 72 } 
	command = { type = treasury value = -800 } 
	command = { type = INF which = 653 value = 75000 } 
	command = { type = CAV which = 653 value = 18000 } 
	command = { type = ART which = 653 value = 20 }
	command = { type = wakeleader which = 08850 } 
	command = { type = trigger which = 88862 } 
	command = { type = war which = DAI }
	}
}

War command cannot work in action_b. Should be modelled like "Lord of Han" with triggered event.
Dai Viet forms in both actions and event 88879 can fire immediately:

#Failure to pacify An Nam#
event = {
	id = 88879
	trigger = {
		exists = DAI 
		}
	random = no
	country = CHI
	name = "Failure to pacify An Nam"
	desc = "The failure to pacify Dai Viet signifies that it is never possible to incorporate Dai Viet as part of the central Chinese empire anymore. It had previously been independent for too long that we have forever lost this area."
	style = 1
	
	date = { day = 1 month = October year = 1419 }
	offset = 30
	deathdate = { day = 1 month = October year = 1582 }

	action_a ={ 
	name = "We must accept that as truth"
	command = { type = sleepevent which = 88882 }
	command = { type = sleepevent which = 88881 }
	command = { type = sleepevent which = 88880 }
	command = { type = sleepevent which = 88876 }
	command = { type = sleepevent which = 88875 }
	command = { type = sleepevent which = 88874 }
	command = { type = sleepevent which = 88873 }
	command = { type = sleepevent which = 88872 }
	command = { type = sleepevent which = 88871 }
	command = { type = sleepevent which = 88870 }
	command = { type = sleepevent which = 88869 }
	command = { type = sleepevent which = 88868 }
	command = { type = sleepevent which = 88867 }
	command = { type = sleepevent which = 88866 }
	command = { type = sleepevent which = 88865 }
	command = { type = ai which = China_3XuanZong.ai }
	}
}

Wad? I don't think so...

To be continued...

[Imrryran]

What means "wad?" ?

Glad to see you're working on this addon. If you need someone to test your changes, send me the files.

[General Guisan]

There are a lot of mistakes for China. Probably, mostly is for gaming reasons, because the game engine can't really work with the problems China had after their closing in fact of technologies. While China should be much, much advanced to any western country by 1419, it should loose it's advanced during the next 400 years, when played historical. For example, the treasure fleet under Zheng He was easily able to sail around the world. Ingame, best you can make is going to Australia or America, if you're lucky. The chinese ships which were the size of the Titanic, are treated like portuguese sailboats, to say at least. Also, for example, Nanjing (Province of Shanghai in AGCEEP) the capital, had far larger city walls in 1419 than, for example, any city in Europe. But they just have to "minimal" attribute. For example source, see here: http://chineseculture.about.com/libr.../aa031601a.htm

But you will find tons of information by just google "Nanjing City Wall(s)".

Even worse, Guangzhou has no city walls at all in the game. http://www.travelchinaguide.com/city.../guangzhou.htm
So well, every smallest european province has city walls, but the Chinese ones doesn't? Well, even for gaming purposes, I say make them suffering some extremely hard events if they choose to close the country, so they won't develop at all. But if you want a game as historical as possible, as AGCEEP wants to be, then you can't make a whole country completely wrong, just because it's not easy for modable.

[YodaMaster]

Thanks for these informations. I'm not a specialist of this area (in fact, of any area) but we know China deserves more attention. AFAIK, AGCEEP just inherited vanilla setup and events. That's why Sun_Zi_36 proposed an add-on with a bunch of new historical and interesting setup, countries and events. But this add-on needs some tweaking, testing and debugging. Any help appreciated!
Btw, when finished, the new map will also be more accurate for a better setup.

To Imrryran: wad means "working as designed". When I use this with a questionmark, that's because I'm not sure author(s) thought to all consequences of involved event.
Thanks for your proposal, I won't forget to send you files when needed.

For now, I'm stuck with breakvassal commands (not only in this add-on) and event 88880 #Truce with Le Loi# needs feedback before I can go further.

[YodaMaster]

Proposed changes for Dai Viet in revolt.txt:

DAI = {
	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1421 }
	expirydate = { day = 31 month = december year = 1820 }
	minimum = { 662 663 1554 }
	extra = { }
	capital = 662
	group = china
	ai = "daiviet.ai"
	}

This will avoid Hanoi, Tanh Noah or Lao Cai defection to bad countries (Champa and/or Lan Xang) before Dai Viet can form. This is also usefull for a player who doesn't want to be bothered and releases Dai Viet as vassals after two year of constant revolts in the three provinces.

The question is:
Is 1421 instead of 1428 historically plausible?

I think to exploit too. Hopefully, If a player releases Dai Viet in 1421, he won't be able to DA them ten years after because of the number of members in China alliance at setup. But, as soon as he can, this will be without the "extreme" 800 revoltrisk...

Btw, about setup, China is in two separate alliances in january 1419:
1) Tibet and Korea
2) Korea, Ha Mi and Mu Bang
wad?
Better to have a single alliance with these four members, no? Plus it will help for above Dai Viet no DA.
EDIT: Instructions for 1419.inc were not clear or not complete... If I understand correctly, China has no relation with Tibet (no RM - vassalization - alliance) now and there is no vassalization between TAU and MYA. Am I wrong?
With this, there is only three members in China's alliance, China apart, and Dai Viet can be released as vassals by a human player, included in alliance and DA ten years after without any problem (and without huge revoltrisk...).
Or is there an event to prevent this?

And what about the date of event 88880 (which is october 1427)? Was it chosen in regards of 1428 in revolt.txt or is it just historical?

[YodaMaster]

As stated by General Guisan in post #4, Shanghai and Guangzhou could have lvl2 fortress, maybe even lvl3. Is there an issue with potential chinese ennemies landtech in siege for such lvl3 fortifications?

[YodaMaster]

EVENTHIST88882;The region of An Nam, or Jiao Zhi, which covers northern Vietnam, had been part of China from the time of conquest by the Qin dynasty (216 BC). After more than 1100 years of rule, at the fall of the Tang dynasty (AD 939) warlords in An Nam defeated invading warlords from China and An Nam remained separate since. However, An Nam paid regular tribute to China and accepted titles granted by China. But An Nam aggressively expanded and invaded the Song dynasty to its north, Champa to its south, Laos and affiliated tribes to its west. An Nam defeated major invasions by the Song and Yuan dynasties (Mongols) from China. After the Ming dynasty was founded An Nam continued to recognise Chinese overlordship. Through 400 years of independence, the people in An Nam developed a sense of national identity.\n \n In the late 1300s, Ly Qui Ly, a powerful minister in An Nam, hanged the king and made his own son king, establishing the Ho dynasty. He ruled by tyranny, severe punishment, harsh taxation to fund wars against Champa and killing all descendants of the previous Tran royal family. In AD 1402, Le Qui Ly sought China's permission to grant his son the title of King. However, a son of the last Tran King escaped to China. The Ming Emperor, Ming Cheng Zu, found Le Qui Ly to be arrogant and ambitious, rather than submissive to China. So he sent the prince back to restore the Tran dynasty in Yong Le year 4, month 3, (AD 1406). However, Le Qui Ly ambushed and killed the prince in front of Ming ambassadors in An Nam. Cheng Zu, enraged, ordered an invasion with 800 000 men, led by Zhang Fu, in month 7 of the same year. By month 5 of the next year Le Qui Ly was captured and An Nam was fully secured. The invasion was an accomplishment that no Emperor succeeded in the last 400 years.\n \n Cheng Zu annexed An Nam and established a new province, Jiao Zhi. This led to discontent amongst the local upper class who expected their privileges to be restored along with the Tran dynasty. The Ming administrative and military officials were also domineering and insensitive to distinct local cultural practices. They applied the Chinese system of taxation, education, examination, and formal rites on the people abruptly. Rebellion soon spread rapidly. Zhang Fu, now Duke of Ying, was again sent to pacify An Nam twice, in Yong Le year 7 (AD 1409) and year 9 (AD 1411). By Yong Le year 12 (AD 1414), almost all resistance forces within Jiao Zhi and hiding in neighbouring countries were eliminated. To pacify the people, Zhang Fu actively built up defences, forcefully organised many bandits into agricultural production, and employed surrendered Vietnamese leaders as officials.\n \n In Yong Le year 14 (AD 1416), Zhang Fu was replaced by Li Bin and a eunuch Ma Qi. Ma Qi began massively searching and extracting riches and treasures within the area, causing great discontent and immediate rebellion of many surrendered Vietnamese leaders, including the famous Le Loi who began the Lam Son resistance in AD 1418. Li Bin was forced to pursue Vietnamese leaders from all directions. In Yong Le year 18 (AD 1420), Chen Zhi was sent to assist Li Bin.;;;;;;;;;;8931

This description is too long. Any idea for reducing it?

[YodaMaster]

In revolt.txt:

U14 = {
	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1419 }
	expirydate = { day = 31 month = december year = 1820 }
	minimum = { 653 654 655 656 657 658 659 660 661 1555 1566 1567 }
	extra = { }
	capital = 653
	group = china
	ai = "china_conquest.ai"
	revolt = no
	}

U14 is "Southern Ming". Could someone explain who they are and why they can revolt (or be released as vassals) for entire EUII timeframe?

[cymruwarrior]

The chinese ships which were the size of the Titanic

The Titanic was 400 feet long?

[dharper]

Originally Posted by Imrryran

What means "wad?" ?

Working As Designed, e.g. not a bug. Sometimes strange behavior reported as bugs is actually what the designers wanted - such as Bohemia turning Reformed Protestant before the Protestant Reformation.

[General Guisan]

Originally Posted by cymruwarrior

The Titanic was 400 feet long?

130-m long, nine-masted galleons

against

269 m Titanic

OK, half the length, but still, European countries couldn't build ships like that for centuries... so basicly, China should have naval tech around 40 or so in the starting But I guess the game just can't work with that very well, so it's impossible to give China correct tech in 1419.

[Jinnai]

Originally Posted by YodaMaster

In revolt.txt:

U14 = {
	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1419 }
	expirydate = { day = 31 month = december year = 1820 }
	minimum = { 653 654 655 656 657 658 659 660 661 1555 1566 1567 }
	extra = { }
	capital = 653
	group = china
	ai = "china_conquest.ai"
	revolt = no
	}

U14 is "Southern Ming". Could someone explain who they are and why they can revolt (or be released as vassals) for entire EUII timeframe?

Southern Ming is the remants of the Ming Dynasty. They should not be able to revolt under any circumstance through the engine atleast. They should only be able to be able to form during the appropriate time period though, as well as all other chinese revolters.

[cymruwarrior]

OK, half the length, but still, European countries couldn't build ships like that for centuries... so basicly, China should have naval tech around 40 or so in the starting

Size isn't soley linked to tech, and you did have big flagships in Europe.
AFAIK, one of the Henrys had a 300 footer, and England wasn't exactly the cutting edge of European shipbuilding at the time, though arguably, they were not as technologicly advanced as the small hand-me-downs Colombo had to make do with.

I guess what i'm trying to say it, that in no way does having a few flagships/treasure ships around 400 feet long warrent an assuption that tech 40 is in order.
The tech level is intended to represent many things, not simply ship size.

[Norrefeldt]

I have reworked the text. I have cut it up in parts. The first part, pre-history was cut down severely. The second part, with the reasons for Chinese invasion, was also cut down, leaving out many dates. The last part is the most recent, and covers the reason for this event. Therefore, it's only been changed slightly. I have parted the text, to show the different parts, they should of course be merged again.
It went from 3175 to 2275 signs (is that the word for it?).

#Le Loi's Lam Son resistance against Ming rule in Vietnam#

EVENTHIST88882;The region of An Nam covers northern Vietnam, had been part of China until 939 BC when warlords in An Nam defeated invading warlords from China and established separate rule. However, tributes were payed to China which also granted titles. An Nam expanded aggressively and invaded the Song dynasty to its north, Champa to its south, Laos and affiliated tribes to its west. After the Ming dynasty was founded in China An Nam continued to recognise Chinese overlordship. Through 400 years of independence, the people in An Nam developed a sense of national identity.\n \n

In In the late 1300s, the ruling Tran dynasty was overthrown and a powerful former minister tried to set up the Ho dynasty by making his son king in 1402 BC. However, a Tran prince had fled to China. Rather than recognising the usurpers China tried to restore the Tran dynasty, but this failed when the prince was murdered. China responding by invading the country in 1406 and made it into a new province, Jiao Zhi.\n \n

This led to discontent amongst the local upper class who expected their privileges to be restored along with the Tran dynasty. The Ming administrative and military officials were domineering and insensitive to distinct local cultural practices. They applied the Chinese system of taxation, education, examination, and formal rites on the people abruptly. Rebellion soon spread rapidly. Zhang Fu, now Duke of Ying, was again sent to pacify An Nam twice. By Yong Le year 12 (AD 1414), almost all resistance forces within Jiao Zhi and hiding in neighbouring countries were eliminated. To pacify the people, Zhang Fu actively built up defences, forcefully organised many bandits into agricultural production, and employed surrendered Vietnamese leaders as officials.\n Zhang Fu was later replaced by Li Bin and a eunuch, Ma Qi. He began massively searching and extracting riches and treasures within the area, causing great discontent and immediate rebellion of many surrendered Vietnamese leaders, including the famous Le Loi who began the Lam Son resistance in 1418. Li Bin was forced to pursue Vietnamese leaders from all directions. In Yong Le year 18 (AD 1420), Chen Zhi was sent to assist Li Bin.;;;;;;;;;;8931

[YodaMaster]

Originally Posted by Norrefeldt

I have reworked the text. I have cut it up in parts. The first part, pre-history was cut down severely. The second part, with the reasons for Chinese invasion, was also cut down, leaving out many dates. The last part is the most recent, and covers the reason for this event. Therefore, it's only been changed slightly. I have parted the text, to show the different parts, they should of course be merged again.
It went from 3175 to 2275 signs (is that the word for it?).

#Le Loi's Lam Son resistance against Ming rule in Vietnam#

Great. I just removed the duplicated "In" at the beginning of your 2nd part and replaced "responding" with "responded" at the end of this part. Good? Maybe a native english could help us for any missed mispelling.

I've merged the two China events files provided with the add-on and reordered events and events sequences by starting date, naval events apart.
Things are more clear now...

Originally Posted by Jinnai

Southern Ming is the remants of the Ming Dynasty. They should not be able to revolt under any circumstance through the engine atleast. They should only be able to be able to form during the appropriate time period though, as well as all other chinese revolters.

Thanks, I saw the events when reordering and will propose changes to revolt.txt for U14 according to appropriate events. It's weird to be able to release them as vassals in 1419. As you said, they should only be able to be able...

EDIT: And what about lvl3 fortifications for Shanghai and Guangzhou (see post #7)?

[YodaMaster]

About treasure_fleet_voyages flag and "Zheng He Treasure Fleet Tribute Receiving" Events:

I don't understand the use of "NOT = { flag = treasure_fleet_voyages }" in trigger for:
88791
88790
88789
88786
88785
88784
I suggest to remove the condition, as in 88788 and 88787. This should happen whether flag is set or not.


There are two different descriptions for Tribute Receiving events (whatever flag condition):
1) "Despite the end of the glorious Treasure Fleet voyages, foreign ambassadors still remembered the presitige of the Treasure Fleet and were eager to pay tribute or gifts to the Ming Empire to establish good relations and trade with the Empire."
2) "As the Treasure Fleet continues its expedition to display the glory of the Empire, foreign ambassadors were impressed and eager to pay tribute or gifts to the Ming Empire to establish good relations and trade with the Empire."

Desc 1 is used even with "flag = treasure_fleet_voyages" in trigger.

I suggest, for consistency, to replace with unique:
"As the Treasure Fleet continued its expedition to display the glory of the Empire, and even after, foreign ambassadors were impressed and eager to pay tribute or gifts to the Ming Empire to establish good relations and trade with the Empire."


I don't understand the use of "command = { type = badboy which = -1 }" in:
88778
88771
88763
88759
88749
Potentially -5 badboy between 1419 and 1450. For which reason? But why not...


I will check ASAP "newly discovered lands" to see if there is no change with new India setup.

[YodaMaster]

About fortifications, in China setup there is no fortifications in Yunnan, Hunnan, Xining, Hainan and already reported Guangzhou. Is it normal?

In event 10000 #Move to Beijing, "command = { type = fortress which = 649 value = 1 }" has no effect. Hebei is lvl1 fortress already. Replacing 649 with -2 doesn't help at all (Capital is still Shanghai even if capital command is before... and it doesn't work neither). This is strange because the tooltip shows "Fortification in Hebei +1" anyway. China landtech is 0 in 1420.
=> Errors in Havard's Bible:
1) The fortress command can only produce fortifications level affordable with current landtech level.
2) Don't use -2 for this command if capital moves in same event.

In this matter, landtech 0 is a real problem for China at startup. Why couldn't China start with lvl 2 landtech in order to be able to build lvl2 fortresses? Or is it done on purpose for game-balance?

Btw, to cymruwarrior and General Guisan, China starts in 1419 with amazing lvl 13 in navaltech... Compared to this, even Venice with lvl 2 is a dwarf (no offense to dwarves).
Venitian fleet is 5 warships + 30 galleys + 5 transports.
Treasure fleet (China) is 50 warships + 50 transports.
No comment... or maybe it is just Sun Zi's add-on I'm working on, but I doubt. In this case, be patient...

EDIT: btw, did you notice the nice set for chinese fleets available here: chilvl1.zip (preview in chilvl1.txt)?

[Jinnai]

Originally Posted by cymruwarrior

Size isn't soley linked to tech, and you did have big flagships in Europe.
AFAIK, one of the Henrys had a 300 footer, and England wasn't exactly the cutting edge of European shipbuilding at the time, though arguably, they were not as technologicly advanced as the small hand-me-downs Colombo had to make do with.

I guess what i'm trying to say it, that in no way does having a few flagships/treasure ships around 400 feet long warrent an assuption that tech 40 is in order.
The tech level is intended to represent many things, not simply ship size.

True size is not key, but if you compared the entire fleets as a whole to entire portugal fleet, the most advanced in europe for some time, it would still for a couple centuries be more advanced. This includes naval strategy.

[Norrefeldt]

From the discussions we had some time ago, where Isaac Brock gave a very good description of naval warfare, it seems that by year 1500 Portugal should have passed China in naval tech.
I think that's a good rough time for when China should be equal in infra and land too.