The Greatest Medieval Commanders

Pirate Z · 06-09-2005, 17:05

Yes; it is time for another one of those threads of superlatives, nitpicking and of course debate that is common in history forums!

This time, the subject is, as you can see, the greatest of the medieval commanders. A subject not much discussed, here, or anywhere else, as far as my knowledge goes. Therefore, high time for debate to tread new, unfamiliar ground!

Period is the Middle Ages, conveniently using the Viking attack on Lindisfarne (793) as the beginning date, and the more traditional fall of Constantinople (1453) as ending date.

Why? Basically the Vikings facilitated a revival of trade, the destruction of old states (Carolingian empire) and the founding of new ones (France, Germany, Normandy, Rus'), and basically from this period on European history becomes interesting again, with real states emerging in stead of semistates which are constantly devoured by the civil war so common to Salic Law. Plus the fact that the commanders operating from then on are actually written about, as opposed to the period in between approx. 400 and our starting date. And 1453? Traditional -- we could also opt for 1493. Makes for a nice round seven centuries, too.

We are missing some choice Muslim and Byzantine commanders such as Heraklios and Khalid bin Whalid, but we'll have to live with that.

Stage is basically the CK map. Any state or empire within those boundaries is eligible to provide a commander. This includes invading forces, such as the Mongols, although only those commanders that actually visited the map, such as Subedei, Jebe and Hulegu. No Chingis, or any other Mongol commanders that never really visited the area.

So, I'll start. As much as I think Subedei and Jebe are the two greatest generals of all time, I'll refrain from mentioning them since they are, well, invaders.

Therefore, I'll offer a general that is not as high in my standing as those two, but nevertheless a good commander: Otto I, the Great. One of the very few western European commanders to ever have been able to defeat a steppe army in pitched battle, namely at Lechfeld, where it is assumed he stopped the Magyar raids singe-handedly.

Sure, dramatic license, but the fact still stands that the Magyars were badly defeated, for the first time since they took the vacant throne of the "terror from the East", last held by the Avars. Perhaps the Magyars were in a decline, but nowhere near as serious as that of the Avars before them, when they were defeated by Charlemagne and conquered by Khan Krum (of Bulgaria). And the fact still stands that Otto I was one of the very few "Western" commanders to have been able to defeat a steppe force in pitched battle. Neither the veteran steppe-fighters of the Byzantines, nor the Russians, nor the Poles and Teutons were able to repeat this achievement.

Woreczko · 06-09-2005, 17:13

I guess, you mean th battle at Lechfeld in 955? If so, it was Otto I

Pirate Z · 06-09-2005, 18:03

Otto I, III, small mistake

Thanks for the correction anyways

06-09-2005, 17:05	#1
Pirate Z Swag Surfin Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Rotje Knor Posts: 466	The Greatest Medieval Commanders Yes; it is time for another one of those threads of superlatives, nitpicking and of course debate that is common in history forums! This time, the subject is, as you can see, the greatest of the medieval commanders. A subject not much discussed, here, or anywhere else, as far as my knowledge goes. Therefore, high time for debate to tread new, unfamiliar ground! Period is the Middle Ages, conveniently using the Viking attack on Lindisfarne (793) as the beginning date, and the more traditional fall of Constantinople (1453) as ending date. Why? Basically the Vikings facilitated a revival of trade, the destruction of old states (Carolingian empire) and the founding of new ones (France, Germany, Normandy, Rus'), and basically from this period on European history becomes interesting again, with real states emerging in stead of semistates which are constantly devoured by the civil war so common to Salic Law. Plus the fact that the commanders operating from then on are actually written about, as opposed to the period in between approx. 400 and our starting date. And 1453? Traditional -- we could also opt for 1493. Makes for a nice round seven centuries, too. We are missing some choice Muslim and Byzantine commanders such as Heraklios and Khalid bin Whalid, but we'll have to live with that. Stage is basically the CK map. Any state or empire within those boundaries is eligible to provide a commander. This includes invading forces, such as the Mongols, although only those commanders that actually visited the map, such as Subedei, Jebe and Hulegu. No Chingis, or any other Mongol commanders that never really visited the area. So, I'll start. As much as I think Subedei and Jebe are the two greatest generals of all time, I'll refrain from mentioning them since they are, well, invaders. Therefore, I'll offer a general that is not as high in my standing as those two, but nevertheless a good commander: Otto I, the Great. One of the very few western European commanders to ever have been able to defeat a steppe army in pitched battle, namely at Lechfeld, where it is assumed he stopped the Magyar raids singe-handedly. Sure, dramatic license, but the fact still stands that the Magyars were badly defeated, for the first time since they took the vacant throne of the "terror from the East", last held by the Avars. Perhaps the Magyars were in a decline, but nowhere near as serious as that of the Avars before them, when they were defeated by Charlemagne and conquered by Khan Krum (of Bulgaria). And the fact still stands that Otto I was one of the very few "Western" commanders to have been able to defeat a steppe force in pitched battle. Neither the veteran steppe-fighters of the Byzantines, nor the Russians, nor the Poles and Teutons were able to repeat this achievement. __________________ The Purple Resplendent - A Byzantine AAR - Abandoned "To be governed is to be watched over, inspected, spied on, directed, legislated at, regulated, docketed, indoctrinated, preached at, controlled, assessed, weighed, censored, ordered about, by men who have neither the right, nor the knowledge, nor the virtue." "[...] Fear of the people is the defect of all those who belong to authority; the people, as concerns power, is the enemy." "Anarchy is Order." - P.-J. Proudhon Last edited by Pirate Z; 06-09-2005 at 18:03.

06-09-2005, 17:13	#2
Woreczko The Wanderer Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: deep province of Masovia Posts: 394	I guess, you mean th battle at Lechfeld in 955? If so, it was Otto I __________________ Tempus fugit...

06-09-2005, 18:03	#3
Pirate Z Swag Surfin Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Rotje Knor Posts: 466	Otto I, III, small mistake Thanks for the correction anyways __________________ The Purple Resplendent - A Byzantine AAR - Abandoned "To be governed is to be watched over, inspected, spied on, directed, legislated at, regulated, docketed, indoctrinated, preached at, controlled, assessed, weighed, censored, ordered about, by men who have neither the right, nor the knowledge, nor the virtue." "[...] Fear of the people is the defect of all those who belong to authority; the people, as concerns power, is the enemy." "Anarchy is Order." - P.-J. Proudhon