English Missions: a World Conversion Attempt

[Wreck]

Hi. I'm not a big reader or writer of AARs. However I had some notes on my current game which I wanted to put down somewhere, and this seemed like the right place.

The game is a world conversion (WConv) attempt. Vanilla EU2 1.08.

The goal, as I see it now, is to try to end the game in 1820 with as many provinces as possible of the state religion. This involves a more-or-less normal world conquest, and lots of province conversion. However it also involves fully colonizing the world, because most provinces are pagan to begin with. I have thought about, and may return to the idea of, not trying for world colonization, in which case the goal would be to try to convert all settled provinces. But still, it seems to me that the pagan unorganized tribes need the Church just as much as the unenlighted "civilized" world...

After some discussion in the main group (and thanks to kongu3 for that), I decided that England has the best chance of a WConv. I'm not sure if that's true - arguments pro or con are welcome, so far as I am concerned (though perhaps added in the thread mentioned above would be a better place than here). In any case, since I've not seen any WConv AAR (please let me know if you know of one), I'm aiming low here. I'm just going to do as much as possible and see what I end up with.

[Stroph1]

Will you stay Catholic as England then?

[Stroph1]

Moved this thread to EU2 AAR forum.

[sliver legion]

Wow, another England AAR they seem to be coming in daily lately. Good luck with the world Cov. attempt.

[Zeno of Cyprus]

I would think Spain had the best chance at a world conversion, but go ahead and play England. It will be inseresting either way.

[Wreck]

The beginning of the game was not exceptional, so I'll describe it only a bit.

After several wars, I took much of France. In a subsequent war around 1470, I vassalized Castile and Aragon. Each of them had around 12 provinces. My BB by this time was high, around the low 20s (out of 37 or so). I decided to wait until around 1520 to kick off the BB wars, because with Isabel and Ferdinand in place (diplo 9), and my monarch (diplo 4), I didn't want to risk annexation. Also I needed time to get a decent tech lead in place.

Sometime around 1520 I did initiate the BB wars, by annexing first Aragon to put me near the limit, then Spain. I had at the time a war chest of some 6000 ducats built up via several helpful deflation events. (I have been fortunate in this game in getting many of these - 4 of them thus far, IIRC, around 1550.) I did not really synchronize my first BB war well. Mameluks had declared on me, and I, eager to get the Kingdom of Jerusalem started, foolishly prolonged the war with them trying to take Judea. My WE, up to 8 by the time the first BB round finally ended, had not worn off before the second round started, and I had to fight that round start at WE 3. The second round therefore used also all mercenaries, and I escaped with a good synchronization after several more years.

The second round saw Eire and Scotland annexed, and Portugal and France driven back to single provinces. All other French culture provinces were in my hands, and some German and Italian ones.

The third BB round was fought through Germany and Italy, mainly. The fourth into Scandanavia, Hungary, and Lithuania.

Currently it's 1553, and I am near to ending the fifth BB round. I'm about to make peace with the Mameluks, though they are rejecting my demands thus far. I've only got 99% on them. But this time I will certainly get KoJ started. I'll also end up taking some Moslem provinces from the Ottomans. I hold most of Europe, excepting Venice (down to three provinces, all wrong-religion except Venice), Lithuania and east, the Ottomans and east, and Sweden (I've only gotten three provinces from them - winters make for hard conquest). My tolerance makes further eastward expansion difficult. For the nonce I have to tolerate Moslems, Reformed, and Protestant in addition to Catholic.

I still have the tech lead (land 16, highest competitor has 12). I've got infra 5 and most of my provinces fully built up. My wrong-culture protestant, moslem, and reformed provinces I have left undeveloped excepting a few that I got before they converted (mainly German ones, and Scotland).

The current plan is to make peace very soon, at which point I'll have about 2 years before my next scheduled BB attack. Thus I can get rid of the 2 WE I have, and rebuild my forces up their 550000 limit (I'm currently down to about 400000). I'm feverishly minting because Gresham's currency reform is about to take place and I am amazingly under 10% inflation (having just got another deflation in 1552).

Outside of Europe, I have all of the Central American Indians owned and mostly converted. In Brazil I have level 3 TPs and colonial cities. In Africa I have taken Zimbabwe and have conversions running there (so far, 2/3 successes with 5 more completions coming in the next year or two.) I have not yet touched West Africa, other than crushing Mali down to a single province, which is a very easy border.

Using the explorers you get from Trading company events in 1545, I've discovered the Incas. I bribed them up and got MA, so I've just completed mapping them. I have no plans to attack yet, though, since I've not got the missionaries to do conversions. In the far east I have discovered some of the islands and planted one colony at Sunda. I'm trying hard to discover Sri Lanka and the southern tip of India, so I can colonize and have a place to build/stage armies to attack India with.

[Judas Maccabeus]

Hey, another England AAR! Let's see that red spread across the globe! And here's to hoping you succeed with the conversion as well!

[Stroph1]

How have the conversions been going?

[Wreck]

Thus far I have done very few conversions, though I think my luck has been good. (In particular I got Zacatecas on the first try, at some 30% or so.) The first century, almost all of my income was going into warfare, tech, refineries, etc., and most everywhere I owned was Catholic. The only exceptions might have been a few pagan conversions in mesoamerica, and those just before I started the BB wars.

Since then, I've mostly converted mesoamerica (4 conversions still ongoing with ~50% rate, so, probably another 3 tries needed there). I am in the process of converting Zimbabwe (ongoing tries in all provinces; 2 converted so far). I have removed Protestantism in England itself (same culture), except for Anglia, where the chance is not great. I am currently working on two French reformed provinces, and I will be concentrating on reformed state-culture provinces for a few years.

As I said, up until recently I really thought I had more important uses for cash; and thus I now find myself short on missionaries. For the two 1445 events you have to have inno 6 to get the explorers (as well as a manufactory, some cash, and some trade investment). I judged this worthwhile, so, I am currently at inno 5. That will, of course, be going down now ASAP. But it is not P without help from events.

Of course I don't have to do all the conversions myself. That's why I am all excited about starting the KoJ (and then letting them beat me in BB war after war.... mwahaha!). I can also see that Lithuania has done a few conversions, and Venice got three of its four Greek islands converted (taken in the most recent peace). One reason I am not entirely unhappy about leaving around Venice is its potential to convert the remaining two provinces it has (one Greek island, one province in Turkey).

In 1630 Lithuania gets an event with two random province conversions most likely. So I am thinking they'll probably live 'til then. Meanwhile I have barely begun to deal with Russia; for now it appears easiest to just beat them every five years for a while. I can't own most of their provinces without very high RR. I dunno... with 1.08 the rebels really are not that bad, if you can afford to garrison everywhere so as to have an army in striking range of every province in the first month, when rebels' morale is low. So I might just take Russia and garrison it... that might be cheaper.

My main long-term goal is to create a Catholic state for every large culture and grow it via (lost) BB wars, then vassalize it. That leaves me converting pagans, english and french (which are easy), and also, Germans, Scandanavians, Dutch, and other smaller groupings of protestants and reformed. These will be hard. If I can get a Catholic vassal do them, I will. But it is not trivial since the vassals can convert. I had Austria down to four provinces at one point, three of which were protestant. I thought I was being clever since I had never seen Austria convert in a game. But it did, so, oh well.

[Lord G. Q. White]

Really nice idea and definatly unique. You've inspired me to try this some time when I start a new game. I like your posts and will possibly use then as a guide when I do play the game.

Thanks,



GW

[Lord Joseph]

Very interesting concept.


I certainly would have thought this would have been easier with a nation like burgundy because of the extra cultures, but I suppose this is more than offset by the colonial advantages that england has.

keep the updates coming.

[Wreck]

On the nation choice, well, there's some thought on that in the other thread. Yes, being able to be a major nation is, IMO, an advantage. England and several other majors get explorers predictably (my naval tech is still 4 - no money for research!). Other nations would have to either keep around the majors to do exploration for them, hope to get random ones (dicey), or just do without.

To me the main thing you want in a nation is (a) quick superpowerification; WC will be necessary (more or less) ASAP; (b) state cultures which will enable you to do significant conversions. (I see little hope for WConv for religions other than Catholic, excepting possibly West-African pagan or a Granada-run Sunni.) This is why I dislike Spain for WConv - it gets a culture, Iberian, which gets almost no state-cultured conversions. (Just a few Moslem provinces, and IIRC those are all done via event anyway.) In a sense you're "wasting" your state culture being Spain, since no Iberian province needs conversion. The CBs on everyone - well, when you're as bad a boy as I am, all you need to do is put a trading post next to them. I have no problem getting into wars.

England has the advantage here of getting two of the bigger cultures, both of which get a fair number of heretics. Anglo-saxon provinces have five (?) go protestant; France gets seven (?) reformed. So that's 12 easy conversions. To me the main downside to England is that I'll only be able to draw manpower from Europe. Thus far that has not really limited me, since I have not gotten very far into the middle east or beyond.

German culture would be great, and I think possibly Austria would be a decent choice for WConv. Germany gets a huge number of heretics. But there is no German culture nation that can become a major in terms of getting free explorers and conquistadors.

Lorraine would probably be good, except that it cannot become France, and being a minor the start is dicey. Assuming you get past that, and can start WC reasonably on time (i.e. same time frame as I did w/ England), I think Lorraine could be a very strong choice. You'd have to rely on others for explorations but that can certainly be done.

Scandinavian culture might also be good, though, in that case essentially all of your provinces go protestant; this might be a bit too much. Just be sure you get a good chunk of Europe before the reformation. Is there any dual-cultured scandinavian/german nation? Now that would be tempting!

Anyway, I'm open to other ideas on good nations to play. However for now I am sticking with England - hours have been spent/wasted!

[Wreck]

Got in a few more years. Mameluks rejected several more peace attempts. Had to peace-out at 48% since I needed the breathing room. I took only Delta, Cyrannacea, and four cheap provinces that I'll want to give to KoJ - Judea, Samiria, Lebanon, Sinai. Alexandria will have to wait. Similarly peaced-out against OE, taking only a few Sunni provinces: Smyrna, Macedonia, Bulgaria. This resulted in a DoW from Seljuk Turks (two provinces), who were quickly smushed and Taurus taken.

I had thought the Mam peace was needed because Judea and Samaria border Jordan, which is controlled by Aden. Accoring to BB as I understand it, Aden should DoW me. Thus I thought I needed time to move in and assault the place, then make a hasty peace. However Aden has been at war with some other countries, including Gujarat, and did not DoW. Still has not.

Thus peace came. It saw two English events (Jane Grey and Bloody Mary) happen that knocked me down to -3 stab. This was nerve wracking. Both events, however, allowed me to decrease innovation; so it is now down to 2. The Mary event gives a free conversion, which happened in Saschen. Not too bad (could have been a state-cultured province), but also not what I would have dreamed of (a scandinavian capital perhaps).

Explorations continue. Discovered both gold provinces in California/Alaska, and have a colony on Monterey. Moving cavalry in to kill natives in Yukon. Now trying to find Hawaii with one explorer, and Tahiti with another. The third discovered all four south-Indian provinces that border nobody, and I cleared the natives from Sri Lanka. First two attempts to colonize failed; another ongoing. The explorer is now working on Indonesia. A fourth explorer died while vainly trying to find Table (that's two that have died there - perhaps 15 sail-bys between them. Really bad luck).

The only major areas I need work on are the Siberian coast and Australia. On Siberia, I will at some point bribe up Nippon and get MA; they don't give it out easily or I would have gotten it earlier in the game.

(One of the things I did in the pre-BB game was get MA with most countries, including every western-rites Christian state. It has been extremely helpful in conquering Europe. This seems to be easy if you are powerful. I didn't get MA in most moslem nations (bad relations), and a handful of "paranoid" nations: China, Japan, Russia, Lithuania.)

Conversionwise, not to much to report. A few more successes and failures. I'm now getting missionaries at a better rate, so hopefully something more to report here in future. Mary has a slightly better admin (6) than her predecessor. So that's good. But I am still only converting state-cultured or pagan provinces. If I run out (which I will, soon), I'll conquer some more pagans. I'll wait for Elizabeth (admin 9! woohoo) who appears in 1558, to begin with the "hard" (non-state-culture) conversions. These are: (1) capital provinces of releasable vassals. I'm going to have to go over revolt.txt and figure out exactly which provinces to convert. Also (2) getting rid of a religion. Reformed is the obvious choice here. If I can convert two Scottish provinces, and three Dutch, then I can create those vassals and let them deal with the others. Beyond those there are a handful of reformed provinces in Hungary and other places that would need either a garrison or a vassal.

Another thing I am going to have to work out is exactly how to use my quota of ally-able vassals. IIRC I get 5 in my alliance. The KoJ won't be in for a while; I'd guess it will take 8 BB round to feed it all the provinces I want it to have. But it will be in eventually. That's one slot taken. My current vague plan is to target the largest (population and province) cultures for vassals. So, I'll have vassals in Scandinavia, Germany and Russia; also (in the longer run) China and Persia. That's already too many. I won't have China or Persia ready for a while, so, there is room in the shorter term for two vassals to help deal with Reformed. Also I may be able to do Scandinavia without help - it's fairly sparsely populated, which means easier and cheaper conversions.

Anyway, after six months at stab -3, BB wars restarted (round 6). WE had worn down and I rebuilt armies up to 500000. Currently at war with Austria, Lithuania, Sweden, Ottomans, and Kingdom of Jurasalem. My tech advantage over Lithuania, combined with its mostly minimal forts, means I've take most of its provinces in less than a year. I'll wait for peace, though, because they are about to finish a conversion attempt on a Russian province that I am hoping works. I do plan to take advantage of their two free conversions 60 years hence; but that may mean releasing them as a vassal (I'll have to see what revolt.txt says).

Ah - I was just looking at Lithuania's events, and found 3448 and 3449... looks like Lithuania had better not exist between 1580 and 1610. So I'll absorb it and release it in time for the conversions in 1630.

The KoJ I released before the BB wars started; again, the common wisdom that a BB DoW is automatic with a border just isn't true. I immediately gave them a state gift (197 ducats), which they used to build a tax collector. Otherwise they did nothing - no armies built. Since they stayed at peace, I gave them two more state gifts, and also remembered to get MA. I figure to need MA if they grow as large as I have planned (which is, to every Arabic culture province, plus perhaps some Berber ones in North Africa which I am not doing anything with for a while).

Anyway, after the BB wars started I forgot about them and just figured it would take time. So I was happy to get their DoW. They have finally built an army! (3000 infantry I think.) I've had units right next door for a while now, waiting for this. The plan is to send in a constant stream of 1000-man cavalry units, one every few days, who will all run away. Each of these is a lost battle. In a year I should be able to rack up enough negative warscore for them to demand at least Lebanon and Samaria (which are cores for them). Hopefully they'll also demand money... and if I am really lucky they will manage to conquer Sinai. Depending on how soon Ak Kos and Mams get back into it, I might have more to offer.

[jwolf]

It is very interesting to read your strategic plans. A truly twisted mind at work. Some questions:

I wasn't sure from what you wrote, but you do know that the 5-member alliance limit counts yourself too? That is, you plus at most 4 allies.

As for your war with Jerusalem, can't you offer them their core provinces regardless of the war score?

Why are you so concerned about discovering Hawaii and Tahiti so early? No one else will take them; they will still be available 200 years from now and it would seem your explorers have some frankly more pressing business.

[Wreck]

Some notes on creating Catholic Russia.

I do not know which nation created Russia in my game. I think it was Moscovy. I am pretty sure it won't happen twice for the same minor, so, need to check that. I can of course release Russia, not a minor. But then I will have the capital as Moscow, which (a) I don't own yet, and which will take at least two more BB rounds after the current one, and (b) is somewhat hard to convert because of population. My chances will be much better if I can target minors that will form Russia, not just Russia.

I really want to get Russia recreated (as Catholic) by 1571, when they get altai culture and cores on the steppes. This will lead them where I want, and also deal with converting altai Sunni provinces. So I think Russia must be the focus of my current game plan. It's 1553; Russia has not yet declared (scheduled for 1554 IIRC), and assuming a fast war each time, I won't eliminate her until 1566 or so. That won't even be time for one attempt at Moscow before 1571.

Thus my only chances to get a Catholic Russia with the steppes event, is to have a minor form her. Thus I will focus the soon-to-be war on Russian minors. Muscovy is no longer releasable - ended in 1530. But there are four others that will do: Novgorod, Pskov, Ryazan and Tver. If I get all four, with a ~25% chance to convert I'm fairly likely to get one on the first try (~68%). Then I'll release it and hope that it thinks Moscow looks tasty, lose a war, and hope that it makes sensible peace demands.

[Wreck]

Hmm, jwolf I'll have to try offering KoJ their core. That would be great! I'm not used to thinking in terms of losing...

As for my explorers... well, the Spanish got me a head start on the Pacific, exploring a long looping path almost to Hawaii before heading back in to land. No human explorer would have lived. Fortunately they explore with robotic craft.

I'd like to have a way to ship units to the Far East. Since I can build reasonable numbers in Mexico, that's the nearest decent source. Assuming of course I have the Pacific ready to ship across. Currently my next nearest source is Zimbabwe. Assembling armies there is a pain in the butt because they move at half speed to the coast. And it's a long way to China.

I'm trying to colonize Sri Lanka, but it will be a while to get a colony built, and the build capacity there will never be that huge, at least without adding southern India and probably kicking off BB conquests there.

Also, as I said I've gotten most exploring done, other than the Far East (Siberia, Australia, some of Indonesia). There are coastal sectors here and there undiscovered, but not really that many. (Several in Hudson bay, Mobile, Roanoke, two on the African coast, Bombay, Palakamedi, a fair number of islands here and there.) I suppose I could send my explorers around the world to get to the Far East, but since I was using them on the Pacific coasts of N/S America it seems just about as good to use them to find a route across the Pacific.

Also one of them is about to die.

[Wreck]

On dealing with Scotland:

It appears that a Catholic nation can manipulate Scotland to get one or two conversions from events. To do this, the English Civil War event has to have happened, so England must exist and be at least modestly centralized. Not sure if England is by default centralized in most games, but I certainly will be.

After the English Civil War starts, Scotland gets an event which either leads to two provinces (choice a), or one (choice b) converting to Reformed (if scotland is either reformed or protestant), or Catholic (if Scotland is Catholic).

Therefore to deal with Scotland, I just need to release it as a vassal in the five years before 1642. It will DoW me, and I force-convert to Catholic for peace. As far as I am aware it cannot reconvert to Reformed while the peace treaty last. So it will then get Catholic conversions including Lothian, at which point it will hopefully stay Catholic. Then I vassalize it in the next war and ally, and let it convert for me. Or, depending on number of ally slots available, just reannex it.

[Wreck]

Another exploitable event:

in 1629, if Austria exists and owns any of the five provinces of Bohemia (Silesia, Moravia, Bohemia, Erz, Sudeten), then all five convert to Catholic (95% chance).

Since three of them are protestant, I'm keeping around a rump Austria. It appears as though releasing it as a vassal won't get any of those provinces, so it would have to take them in a war, and I don't trust the AI to do that in a timely fashion.

[Wreck]

It looks like the best choice for a Scandinavian vassal will be Norway. She starts with 7 core provinces, of which 3 have remained Catholic (Finnmark, Narvik, and Iceland). So once I get the capital province (Ostlandet) converted, that will be 4 of 7, and hopefully it will stay Catholic and commence with the other conversions. (Innovative is 3 - no problem there).

After six of the core are done, I'll get in a war and lose some of Sweden. Then back to placid vassalhood for a while. Repeat until Scandinavia returns to the fold.

[jwolf]

You are a demented evil genius! I hope you manage to pull off these clever schemes. I especially liked your line "I'm not used to thinking in terms of losing."