Ottomans 1419 - 1520

[Norrefeldt]

Originally Posted by chegitz guevara

How about this, we have the Pretender event in 1421 give the Ottomans a two year CB, and the Heximilion event will also grant a shorter CB? It will only cost you one more BB this way. I think it's a good compromise.

Sounds like worth trying. If Constantinople is always taken out thirty years too early we have to think again. Right now i think it works fairly well, and BE survises a few decades up till and sometimes even after 1453.

[chegitz guevara]

I went to the library yesterday and ordered An Economic and Social History of the Ottoman Empire, 1300-1600 through Inter-Library Loan, along with ten other books, and a map (Conquests of Mehmed II and Beyezid II--only five libraries in the world have this map, so chances are iffy). I imagine they'll be trickling in over the next few months. I'm sure the librarian thinks I'm doing a dissertation on the Ottoman Empire now. About half of them are on ethnicities and cultures in the Empire, so I'm kinda stoked (I'm a such a friggan' nerd ).

I wonder if there's anything new on South Arabia.

[Norrefeldt]

You get full nerd points for it (I wish I had such good libraries nearby...)

[Yakman]

Originally Posted by chegitz guevara

I went to the library yesterday and ordered An Economic and Social History of the Ottoman Empire, 1300-1600...

That's a kick-butt history book if there ever was one.

[niceta]

Originally Posted by Yakman

That's a kick-butt history book if there ever was one.

I'm sorry what it means a kick-butt history book?

[chegitz guevara]

Kick-butt is an American term meaning, roughly, "powerful," as in, it could kick your butt.

Here's the total list of things I've ordered. I over-ordered (I'm only allowed ten ILL items) so I'm going to have to cut some things out.

*new* The bolded items are the ones I currently have. One interesting thing I discovered was that Smyrna didn't become majority Greek until the 19th Century, when Aegean islanders began migrating there. When did Turks become the majority? Dunno yet.

A Monetary History of the Ottoman Empire by Sevket Pamuk
Arab Cities in the Ottoman Period by Andre Raymond
The Conquests of Murad I & Beyezid I, 1362 - 1402 by Donald Edgar Pitcher (this is a map)
The Janisarries by Godfrey Goodwin
Bandits and Bureaucrats by Karen Barkey
Appproaching Ottoman History and Peasants, Dervishs, & Traders in the Ottoman Empire and Subjects of the Sultan by Suraiya Faroqhi
The Ottoman Empire, its record and legacy by Wayne S Vucinich
The Ottoman Empire and An Economic and Social History of the Ottoman Empire, 1300 - 1914 by Halil Inalcik
Between Two Worlds by Cemal Kafadar
The Ottomans by Andrew Wheatcroft
The Ottoman Empire and Early Modern Europe by Daniel Goffman
After Empire by Karen Barkey and Mark Von Hagen
The Origins of the Ottoman Empire by Mehmet Fuat Koprulu and Gary Leiser
The Turkish Empire by G. Shaw-Lefevre Eversley ad Sir Valentine Chirol

and last but not least

The Ottoman Peoples and the End of Empire by Justin McCarthy

whew

[niceta]

Originally Posted by chegitz guevara

Kick-butt is an American term meaning, roughly, "powerful," as in, it could kick your butt.

Here's the total list of things I've ordered. I over-ordered (I'm only allowed ten ILL items) so I'm going to have to cut some things out.

A Monetary History of the Ottoman Empire by Sevket Pamuk
Arab Cities in the Ottoman Period by Andre Raymond
The Conquests of Murad I & Beyezid I, 1362 - 1402 by Donald Edgar Pitcher (this is a map)
The Janisarries by Godfrey Goodwin
Bandits and Bureaucrats by Karen Barkey
Appproaching Ottoman History and Peasants, Dervishs, & Traders in the Ottoman Empire and Subjects of the Sultan by Suraiya Faroqhi
The Ottoman Empire, its record and legacy by Wayne S Vucinich
The Ottoman Empire and An Economic and Social History of the Ottoman Empire, 1300 - 1914 by Halil Inalcik
Between Two Worlds by Cemal Kafadar
The Ottomans by Andrew Wheatcroft
The Ottoman Empire and Early Modern Europe by Daniel Goffman
After Empire by Karen Barkey and Mark Von Hagen
The Origins of the Ottoman Empire by Mehmet Fuat Koprulu and Gary Leiser
The Turkish Empire by G. Shaw-Lefevre Eversley ad Sir Valentine Chirol

and last but not least

The Ottoman Peoples and the End of Empire by Justin McCarthy

whew

For a different sights try to read "Constantinople" by Philip Mansel.

[Sokullu_Mehmet]

"v. *** Fiscal Policies of Mehmet II should also increase the Ottoman's innovativeness. Mehmet II was a major patron of the arts and humanities, and many Byzantine Greeks and Italians began moving back to the Empire during his rule."

*I agreed with the second part that explained Mehmed II protected science and art, but there is a problem about first one, becuase fiscal means financial (as far as I know again, if it is wrong sorry). So I think we need another event that is for science and art issue. Maybe we can have even few flavor events?

*Also there weren't any kurdish revolt till after WW1, so why Ottomans don't have, at least have a option to have Kurdish culture as a state culture?

[chegitz guevara]

How well did the Kurds and Ottomans get along in this period?

[Twoflower]

*double post*

[Twoflower]

Just my two cents on the Anatolian Bey principalities:

• I cannot really see why Karaman would start out as Ottoman vassals. They had close dynastic relationships with the Ottomans - Mehmed of the OE and Mehmed II of Karaman were cousins -, but the OE was not really yet strong enough in 1419 to dominate Karaman. In fact Karaman managed to seize Bursa for several brief periods in the first two decades of the 15th century. They were much more equal competitors rather than vassals. There should just be a royal marriage.
• Karaman should have good relations to the Timurid Empire (which had restored the principality after its first annexation by the Ottomans in 1399) and bad relations to the Mameluks (the Mameluks had occupied the Karaman territories in 1418, unsuccessfully tried to install the bey's brother, Alaeddin Ali Bey, as puppet ruler and were driven away before the end of the year)
• I strongly disagree with putting Karaman's capital in Konya and letting Ramazan revolt in Taurus. This is geographically quite wrong and it is also simply incorrect to have Konya as capital of Karaman. Ramazan wasn't really so significant that it has to be represented in some way, however if they are to be represented they are preferable as revolters against the Mameluks in Adana (if Dulkadir isn't placed there, that is).
• Karaman might deserve a few more cores. They claimed succession to the Seljuks and controlled quite a significant portion of Anatolia at the time of their largest extension in the middle of the 14th century. Bursa, Tarsus, Ankara and Antalya have all at some point been controlled by them. On the base of what they indeed controlled, they could get shields on Antalya, Konya, Angora, Anatolia and Adana; on the base of the succession of the Seljuks they could even have shields on all of Anatolia (which would seem bad).
• Candar should start out as vassal of the Ottomans. Except for a brief period after the Ottoman disaster at Ankara and another attempt to obtain sovereignity during the succession struggle in the OE of 1421, the Candar dynasty was always quite submissive to the Ottomans. The separation between one branch in Kastamonu that was submissive to the OE and one in Sinope that opposed them did not exist anymore in 1419; all lands of Candar were ruled by Isfendiyar Bey and his son Kasim Bey who were both loyal vassals of the Ottomans.

[chegitz guevara]

(note from chegitz, I rearranged some of Twoflower's arguments to put them together in a more logical order--at least to me )

Originally Posted by Twoflower

Just my two cents on the Anatolian Bey principalities:
[*]I cannot really see why Karaman would start out as Ottoman vassals. [snip] the OE was not really yet strong enough in 1419 to dominate Karaman. In fact Karaman managed to seize Bursa for several brief periods in the first two decades of the 15th century.

While this is mostly true, the Ottomans still smacked them around enough to force them to pay tribute. Murad II fought four wars against the Karaman, and though he defeated them all four times, he never took any territory from them, only reducing them to vassalage.

Despite the Timurids freeing the various minor Turkish states, most of them were still forced to pay tribute to the Ottomans.

Let's see if we can find more info on this.

Originally Posted by Twoflower

[*]I strongly disagree with putting Karaman's capital in Konya and letting Ramazan revolt in Taurus. This is geographically quite wrong and it is also simply incorrect to have Konya as capital of Karaman.

The city of Konya was the capital of the Karaman and the basis of their claim as the successors of the Seljik's of Rum.

Originally Posted by Twoflower

[*]Karaman should have good relations to the Timurid Empire (which had restored the principality after its first annexation by the Ottomans in 1399) and bad relations to the Mameluks (the Mameluks had occupied the Karaman territories in 1418, unsuccessfully tried to install the bey's brother, Alaeddin Ali Bey, as puppet ruler and were driven away before the end of the year).[*]Karaman might deserve a few more cores. They claimed succession to the Seljuks and controlled quite a significant portion of Anatolia at the time of their largest extension in the middle of the 14th century. Bursa, Tarsus, Ankara and Antalya have all at some point been controlled by them. On the base of what they indeed controlled, they could get shields on Antalya, Konya, Angora, Anatolia and Adana; on the base of the succession of the Seljuks they could even have shields on all of Anatolia (which would seem bad).

Agreed. . . . Should I add another spot for Turkish minors in the main list?

Originally Posted by Twoflower

[*]Candar should start out as vassal of the Ottomans. Except for a brief period after the Ottoman disaster at Ankara and another attempt to obtain sovereignity during the succession struggle in the OE of 1421, the Candar dynasty was always quite submissive to the Ottomans. The separation between one branch in Kastamonu that was submissive to the OE and one in Sinope that opposed them did not exist anymore in 1419; all lands of Candar were ruled by Isfendiyar Bey and his son Kasim Bey who were both loyal vassals of the Ottomans.

From what I've read, the Jandarids managed to hold out until 1461.
http://www.bartleby.com/67/314.html
Though this source has them in Kastamonu, and I've seen others place them in Sinope.
http://i-cias.com/e.o/sinop.htm has them annexed in 1458.
This site (http://www2.uta.edu/stillwell/notes-...ynasties.htm#j) lists the Jandarids as the Isfandiyarids.

From Encyclopædia Britannica
"Dynastic rivalries again caused a division of the principality in 1417, with one branch falling once more under Ottoman influence."

Originally Posted by Twoflower

Ramazan wasn't really so significant that it has to be represented in some way, however if they are to be represented they are preferable as revolters against the Mameluks in Adana (if Dulkadir isn't placed there, that is).

Check out this neat little map! Doesn't work in Firefox but it does work in Internet Explorer.
http://i-cias.com/e.o/atlas/h-ottomans.htm

[Twoflower]

Originally Posted by chegitz guevara

While this is mostly true, the Ottomans still smacked them around enough to force them to pay tribute. Murad II fought four wars against the Karaman, and though he defeated them all four times, he never took any territory from them, only reducing them to vassalage.

This might be true (don't know, really), but still I'm quite sure that Karaman ought to be allowed to do diplomacy on its own and should be able to attack the OE without much restrictions, as they did so several times IRL. Austria and Venice payed tribute to the OE for some time as well, and I don't think anybody would suggest vassalising them to the OE

Originally Posted by chegitz guevara

The city of Konya was the capital of the Karaman and the basis of their claim as the successors of the Seljik's of Rum.

Sorry, but this is wrong, at least according to my sources (btw there seems to be quite a lot of good of information on the site I've taken the following quote from):

from http://www.ozturkler.com/data_englis...0003_01_26.htm
The capital city of the principality had been Eregli for approximately 6 years between the years of 1250 and 1256, and then, Ermenek was the capital city of the principality for nearly 5 years between the years of 1256 and 1261. Afterwards, the capital city was moved to the city of Karaman that was frequently called as “Larende” in those times and it had remained as the capital city until the end of this principality. Konya had sometimes been the city of enthronement since it was the biggest city of the country and some of the beys had dwelled in this city.

Agreed. . . . Should I add another spot for Turkish minors in the main list?

Good idea, although this is not completely on topic, the Turkish minors are closely related to the OE; and btw making at least Karaman a somewhat "playable" country by giving it leaders, events and some cores would be quite nice.

EDIT: Btw, for good information on Candar/Jandar/Isfendiyarogullari: http://www.ozturkler.com/data_englis...0003_01_18.htm Kastamonu and Sinop were controlled by the same dynasty, and there were just some splits between brothers, cousins or father and son; most of these rulers were however quite cooperative towards the Ottoman Empire and the whole area was quite strongly under Ottoman influence; I think this definitely justifies vassalage, no matter which branch the state actually represents.

[chegitz guevara]

Should Hejaz be an independent state or part of the Mamluks and then the Ottomans?

[chegitz guevara]

After further research, moving the Persian capital from Azerbaijan should wait until later.

I don't know where the CoT should move. Perhaps Hormuz or Basra.

[Panther G]

I have several suggestions

1)To add KNI to the combat list for "TUR_SelimII.AI" and "TUR_MuradIII.AI" to make sure, that TUR will combat/annex them in case "TUR_SuleymanI.AI" fails to do that.

2)In "AGCEEP_Specific_KnightsHospitallier.eue" event 24031 #Order moves to Malta# this

NOT = {control = { province = 481 data = -1 }}

or as an alternative

control = { province = 481 data = TUR }

should be added to the trigger, because often there are revolters on Malta, they defect to the Knights and the event is triggered, but it should not in this case.

[Norrefeldt]

Originally Posted by Panther II

I have several suggestions

1)To add KNI to the combat list for "TUR_SelimII.AI" and "TUR_MuradIII.AI" to make sure, that TUR will combat/annex them in case "TUR_SuleymanI.AI" fails to do that.

2)In "AGCEEP_Specific_KnightsHospitallier.eue" event 24031 #Order moves to Malta# this

NOT = {control = { province = 481 data = -1 }}

or as an alternative

control = { province = 481 data = TUR }

should be added to the trigger, because often there are revolters on Malta, they defect to the Knights and the event is triggered, but it should not in this case.

Agree. I can take care of the AI files, since I'm going to add Morea and Theodoro anyway to some of them.

[Panther G]

In my opinion there are events missing for the following case:
-KNI recreated as vassal of ARG
-SPA inherits ARG
-then KNI should be a vassal of SPA

My idea is to make 2 versions of SPA285005 and 3848, the first event has as a trigger "vassal = { country = ARG country = KNI }" and also that version 2 has not fired and adds the following

command = { type = vassal which = KNI }
command = { type = relation which = KNI value = ??? }

then the existing inherit events need as a trigger, that the new version of the event has not fired (NOT = { event = xxxxx }). How do you think about that?

[Norrefeldt]

Sounds excellent and should be posted in the appropiate thread Could you do the code for the both events there as well, just to have it done?

[chegitz guevara]

Originally Posted by Panther II

I have several suggestions

1)To add KNI to the combat list for "TUR_SelimII.AI" and "TUR_MuradIII.AI" to make sure, that TUR will combat/annex them in case "TUR_SuleymanI.AI" fails to do that.

Out of scope. This only deals with the Otto's up to 1520.

Originally Posted by Panther II

2)In "AGCEEP_Specific_KnightsHospitallier.eue" event 24031 #Order moves to Malta# this

NOT = {control = { province = 481 data = -1 }}

or as an alternative

control = { province = 481 data = TUR }

should be added to the trigger, because often there are revolters on Malta, they defect to the Knights and the event is triggered, but it should not in this case.

Good idea.