1936 Naval OoB Comments.

[von Adler]

This (and two similar threads for 1939 and 1941) will be the place to comment on my and GS_Guderian's new naval OoBs for the 1936 scenario in vanilla HoI. If you have comments, questions, corrections, ideas, complaints or praising regarding our new 1936 Naval OoBs, please post them here and not in the 1936 Naval OoB thread. We will try to answer any relevant post here.

The thread for the naval OoBs is here:
http://www.europa-universalis.com/fo...d.php?t=128650

[von Adler]

This is how we regard ships in HoI.

Destroyers (4-6 ships make a flotilla).
Level 0: ww1 destroyers, modern torpedo boats. Must have at least 2x75mm guns and 1xTT.
Level 1: Pre-war and early war destroyers. Must have at least 3x105mm guns and 2xTT.
Level 2: Early war destroyer leaders. Must have at least 4x120mm guns and 6xTT.
Level 3: Late war destroyer leaders, fast light cruisers. Must have at least 4x152mm and 6xTT.

Cruisers (individual ships).
Level 0: Old (pre- and ww1) light cruisers.
Level 1: Modern light cruisers, old armoured and heavy cruisers and old coastal defence ships.
Level 2: Modern heavy cruisers, modern coastal defence ships.
Level 3: Smaller battlecruisers, late-war heavy cruisers.

Battleships (individual ships).
Level 0: Pre-dreadnought battleships and heavy coastal defence ships.
Level 1: Basic dreadnoughts and super-dreadnoughts.
Level 2: Modern battleships.
Level 3: The most advanced battleships.

Submarines (4-6 make a group).
Level 0: Coastal submarines, small submarines.
Level 1: Medium submarines, larger coastal submarines.
Level 2: Ocean submarines.
Level 3: Very advanced submarines.

Carriers
Level 0: 40 planes or less.
Level 1: 41-80 planes.
Level 2: 81-120 planes.
Level 3: 121 planes and above.

[von Adler]

The old discussion of 1936 naval OoBs can be found here:

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...7&page=1&pp=25

[GS_Guderian]

Nations without at least countable escorts are simply left out.

[tiny]

exelent work, looking forward to next patch

[von Adler]

Wee! First comment on the new style. Thanks for the comment, Tiny.

Guderian, we need to get the carriers type reasons up too.

[Vulture]

Originally Posted by tiny

exelent work, looking forward to next patch

All 1936 changes that were proposed are in
Other scenarios will follow later.

[tiny]

i saw someting about plan-z ships, why not make that an event?
give the player a possibility to go with the plan and the ai can be told that this is nothing for him.

[GS_Guderian]

There won´t be any new Events added, as far as I know, therefore no other solution available.
We tried to find the best way and I think we did.

[von Adler]

We have done some updates to the naval list today, mainly to the Netherlands.

[Vulture]

Originally Posted by tiny

i saw someting about plan-z ships, why not make that an event?
give the player a possibility to go with the plan and the ai can be told that this is nothing for him.

Do you mean an event to *commence* builds?
Not necessary, the player, if he wants those ships, can commence the builds manually. The AI shouldn't be hampered, and thus doesn't need an event.

Also, there is no event command to cancel event commands

[von Adler]

Slight update to the 1936 naval OoB, Vulture. Take a look and acknowledge wehn you have time, please.

[von Adler]

A small change to the French list was done.

[mhitchens1963]

[quote=von Adler]This (and two similar threads for 1939 and 1941) will be the place to comment on my and GS_Guderian's new naval OoBs for the 1936 scenario in vanilla HoI. If you have comments, questions, corrections, ideas, complaints or praising regarding our new 1936 Naval OoBs, please post them here and not in the 1936 Naval OoB thread. We will try to answer any relevant post here.

OK, as promised, I've had a look at what you've done.

Before I comment specifically on the OOB I’d like to make a couple of more general comments. For very much the greatest part I think what Adler and Guderian have done is very good, but I think some improvements can still be made.

First, classifications

BATTLESHIPS
--------------
The changes in 1.05c have solved the problem of the pre-dreadnoughts by significantly increasing the difference between BB types 0 &1. Let’s have a look at what the types now seem to represent.

Adler and Guderian have stated they are using BB categories 0, 1, 2 and 3 as follows

BB0 – pre-dreadnoughts and coast defence battleship
BB1 – dreadnoughts, super-dreadnoughts and 30’s BC’s
BB2 – Modern battleships
BB3 – the most advanced battleships

They appear to consider type 4 to represent a level of design not historically achieved.
I’m not sure what the division between types 2 and 3 is intended to be. Note that, in the 1939 scenario all major powers (with the exception of the USSR and China) can build type 3 BBs.

I’m assuming that’s what ADLER AND GUDERIAN intend is something like

Type 2 classes
Nelson, King George V, Bismarck, Littorio, North Carolina, South Dakota, Richelieu, Iowa

Type 3 classes
Lion, Type H, Montana, Yamato

Anyway, assuming I’m right, then I see some problems with this.

It doesn’t give enough distinction between the types listed above and the dreadnoughts which they have classified under type 1. Remember that the stats are now
BB1 seattack 14, seadefence 15
BB2 seattack 17, seadefence 15

Putting the dreadnoughts and superdreadnoughts together ignores the significant differences in capabilities between some of these classes. Consider the following examples:

Espana class (Spain)
Displacement 15,500 t
Speed 19.5 knots
Armament 8x12”, 20x4”
Belt: 8”
Minas Gerais (Brazil)
Displacement 19,200 t
Speed 21 knots
Armament 12x12”,22x4.7”
Belt: 9”
Courbet Class (France)
Displacement 22,000 t
Speed 20 knots
Armament 12x12”, 22x5.5”
Belt: 11.75”
New Mexico Class (US)
Displacement 33,300 t
Speed 21 knots
Armament 12x14”, 14x5”
Belt: 14”
Maryland Class (US)
Displacement 35,000 t
Speed 20.5 knots
Armament 8x16”, 12x5”
Belt: 14”
Nagato class (Japan)
Displacement 39,100 t
Speed 25 knots
Armament 8x16”, 18x5.5”
Belt: 11.8”
Queen Elizabeth class (England)
Displacement 36,000 t
Speed 23.5 knots
Armament 8x15”,8x6”
Belt: 13”

While these are probably the extreme examples I think they show the problem.

I also think type 4 should not be ignored – if it is not the planned, but usually never built, biggest ships, then what is it?

I think all five types (0-4) should be used, as follows

BB0 Pre-dreadnoughts and coast defence battleships
BB1 dreadnoughts
BB2 super-dreadnoughts, modern battlecruisers
BB3 ships designed to incorporate WW1 lessons
BB4 2nd generation modern ships

Super-dreadnoughts are ships not incorporating design changes from WW1 experience, of at least 30,000 tons displacement and main gun caliber at least 14”

So what Adler and Guderain have as types 2 and 3 I have as types 3 and 4.
This classification allows the great powers to build their King George Vs, Bismarcks, etc in 1939 but requires extra research to do better. It doesn’t require any major alteration to the battleship tech allocation in 1.05c. It puts a (relatively minor) distinction between the dreadnoughts and superdreadnoughts, but one that is in terms of attack value, which is propably correct. It puts a much greater distinction between those ships designed with knowledge of WW1 experience and those without, which is again correct.

CRUISERS
----------
While Adler and Guderian make a distinction for cruisers based on light and heavy, which is reasonable, they seem to base this on armament caliber only, ignoring number of guns and tonnage, which are just as relevant in determining what is and isn’t a heavy cruiser.

I would propose the following:
CA0 Old (pre- and ww1) cruisers (light, heavy and armoured) and old coast defence ships
CA1 Light cruisers (less than 12x6” guns or 8x8”guns or similar), modern coast defence ships
CA2 pre-ww2 and early war heavy cruisers
CA3 late war heavy cruisers

Not that much difference really. The differences, and my reasons, are as follows
The de-rating of old armoured, heavy and coast defence ships to type 0. These ships were two decades or more older than modern light cruisers. Their armour scheme and water tight protection were usually markedly inferior, they were much slower and their armament quality and layout was inferior.

The de-rating of modern coast defence ships to type 1. These ships usually were not comparable to modern heavy cruisers. Consider the following
Sri Ayuthia (Siam/Thialand)
Displacement 2265t, speed 15.5 knots, armament 4x8”
This could not be considered superior to a modern light cruiser or, given the present ratings, to the Swedish coast defence battleships.

The different definition of heavy and light. Armament caliber does not tell the whole story. Rating the York and Exeter as superior fighting vessels to the later British ships armed with 12x6” simply isn’t accurate. There are other examples.

Both Adler and Guderian’s proposal and mine means that most major powers should have the capability of building type 2 cruisers in ’36, or ’39 at the latest. Currently only Japan and the UK can do this by ’39. The techs need to be updated to reflect the ships in the OOB. We also may need a bit more thought about whether the Japanese and UK should be able to build type 3 cruisers in ’39.

DESTROYERS
I would suggest the following
DD0 ww1 destroyers
DD1 pre-ww2 destroyers
DD2 early war destroyers (Must have at least 4x120mm DP, 6xTT, 35 knots, 2300 ton ton displacement)
DD3 late war destroyers (as DD2, but at least 3000t full displacement)

Less changes here. I don’t think it’s worth worrying about separately rating the destroyer leaders. There weren’t very many of them and they would force extra technology to be given to countries, which would then proceed to build destroyer fleets of destroyer leaders – not very historical. I think the fast light cruisers are taken care of by my changes to the cruiser classifications.

CARRIERS
----------
Essentially I agree with the classification proposed with Adler and Guderian. My only qualification is that you have to be careful to use operational maximum limits on number of planes carried when classifying a ship.


AVAILABILITY
--------------
A ship (or multi-ship unit) should only be put in the OOB if there is no other way to get it ready in time to meet the hostorical situation. HoI usues much shorter build times for ships then is historically realistic, fior example about 2 years for BB's rather than the hiostorical 4-6. I'm guessing this was done to allow more player flexiblility. What it does mean is that some ships which were actually building don't need to be put in the build queue. they can be ordered by the player after the scenario begins and still complete at the historical time.


One final point is the use of launch date versus completion date.

Using launch date is not sustainable for larger vessels. Capital ships, and even cruisers were launched without most of their equipment – including their armament (see the contemporary newsreel footage of the launching of the Bismarck and various British ships). There is no way in which these ships could be considered battle ready in any sense upon launching. The organisation rising from 0 is better considered to represent the bringing of the crew to combat readiness, not the actual completion of the ship.
Using launch date would require counting a number of ships that were never combat capable to be listed as functioning units (such as the Graf Zeppelin, launched 8 December 1938, Impero, launched 15 November 1939 and a number of Japanese carriers) or a number of units to be considered combat capable well before they actually were (for example the Hiyo and Junyo, launched mid-1941, completed mid-1942 or Roma, launched 9-6-40, completed 14-6-1942). It can be seen from these dates (and I can give many other examples) that considering the organisation accrual to represent the difference between launch and completion does not work.
As another example consider two elements of the Bismarck’s only cruise (May 1941). First she was accompanied by the Prinz Eugen, not the Tirpitz, as the later was not ready. Considering the Tirpitz’s launch (1 April 1939) and completion dates (25 February 1941) using the launch date will not represent this properly. Second, it is well known that the poor performance of the Prince of Wales was due to her not being properly combat ready. Again her dates (launched 3 September 1939, completed 31 March 1941) show that it is necessary to take the completion date, not the launch date, as the time the ship arrives.

OK, next will come my first OOB suggestions, Argentina to Italy

Michael

[mhitchens1963]

Argentina
----------
Change Veinticinco de Mayo Almirante Brown from cruiser type 2 to cruiser type 1
Change Independencia and La Libertad from cruiser type 1 to cruiser type 0

The Veinticinco de Mayo and Almirante Brown had armament of only 6x7.5”. CA type 1 under my classification.
The Independencia and La Libertad were 2300t ships of 1890/91. They should not be rated any better than CA type 0.


Australia
--------
No changes


Belgium
-------
No changes


Brazil
------
No changes


Bulgaria
-------
No changes


Canada
-------
No changes


Chile
-------
Change Almirante O'Higgins from cruiser type 1 to cruiser type 0
My sources differ on the Almirante O’Higgins - one has her stricken 1958, the other 1926. Either way, she is too old to rated higher than CA0.


China
------
No changes, but Adler and Guderian's verions may be over-rating all the ships, the so-called cruisers ranging in displacement between 2600t and 4300t.


Colombia
---------
no changes



Cuba
-----
I couldn't find a listing for Cuba in Adler and guderian's work. Cuba had 3 gunboats, which may equate to an escort point.


Denmarck
---------
Change Peder Skram and Niels Iuel from cruiser type 1 to cruiser type 0
The Peder Skram (3785 tons, 16knots) and Niels Iuel (4100 tons 16 knots) are small slow ships of old design. Type 0 is all they deserve.


Estonia
-------
No changes


Finland
-------
Change Ilmarinen and Väinämöinen from cruiser type 2 to battleship type 0.
The Ilmarinen class, with 4x10” guns, can probably be rated as coast defence battleships. It would also reduce the techs Finland requires - giving them the ability to build modern heavy cruisers is proibably overstating things.


France
-------
I include my altered complete listing for France, hopefully less confusing

Battleship type 2:
Dunkerque (+1 Speed) (in building process until Apr.1937)
Strasbourg (+ 1 Speed)(in building process until Dec.1938)

Battleship type 1
Courbet
Jean-Bart
Paris
Bretagne
Lorraine
Provence

Battleship type 0:
Diderot
Condorcet

Carrier type 0:
Bearn

Cruiser type 2:
Algérie
Foch
Dupleix
Suffren
Colbert
Duquesne
Tourville

Cruiser type 1:
Duguay Trouin
Lamote-Picquet
Primaguet
Jeanne d'Arc
Émile Bertin
La Galissonnière

Cruiser type 0:
Waldeck-Rousseau
Strasbourg
Metz

Proposed Destroyer Squadrons:
type 1: 8
type 0: 3

Proposed Submarine Flotillas:
type 2: 1
type 1: 9
+ 1 in building process until December 9, 1938
type 0: 5

Starting Escorts: 60

The Richelieu battleships (which I believe should be type 3) have been removed as with their completion dates they would be started (in game terms) after the 1936 scenario begins. The battlecruisers and older battleships have been re-rated in line with my classifications. I’ve changed the length of time for the battlecruisers in building to their completion dates.
The General Alexseev (ex Volya, ex Imperator Alexander III) was indeed scrapped in France in 1936, but she had not seen active service for over a decade and it is extremely doubtful if could have been made serviceable again. So I have deleted her.
I have left the Condercet and Diderot, even though the former was a depot ship from 1931 and the Diderot was condemned as unserviceable in 1936.

I have removed the Pluton from the cruisers as she was an unarmoured minelayer.
Thionville has been removed – she was disarmed and served as a stationary accommodation ship from 1932
Jean de Vienne, Marseillaise, Gloire, Montcalm and Georges Leygues have been removed based on their completion date as opposed to launch date.

The type 2 destroyer has been removed as its completion date is longer from the scenario start then its takes to complete – let the player choose to build it.


Germany
--------
completed altered OOB

Battleship type 0:
KM Schlesien (+ 1 AA)
KM Schleswig-Holstein (+ 1 AA)

Cruiser type 2:
KM Deutschland (+1 NA)
KM Graf Spee (+1 NA) (in building process until 06.01.1936)
KM Admiral Scheer (+1 NA)

cruiser type 1:
KM Emden
KM Königsberg
KM Köln
KM Karlsruhe
KM Leipzig
KM Nürnberg

cruiser type 0:
KM Medusa

Proposed Destroyer Squads (each of 5 ships)
type 1: 1
type 0: 4

Proposed Submarine Flottilas (each of 5 boats)
type 0: 5


Starting Escorts 1936: 23

The Scharnhorsts (which I think should type 2) have been removed based on their completion dates. Similarly with the Hipper class cruisers. The Graf Spee date is her completion date, not launch.
I have removed the type 1 DD’s building as the build time for a type 1 is only 4 months, less than these would sit in the build queue.
I can’t see the justification for the Type I submarines. The first two larger submarines (Type IA U25, U26) were launched in 1936, the next in 1936-1937 (Type VIIA U27-U36). So I've left them with just the type 0



Greece
-------
Change the Georgios Averof from a cruiser type 1 to a cruiser type 0.
Replace the "Ellis" with the "Helle"
Add a second type 0 DD

The Georgios Averof was a 1907 vintage cruiser armed with 4x9.2” and so I’ve rated her type 0. I can’t find any reference to an “Ellis” – but there was an old light cruiser called “Helle”
I Think there’s enough to justify the second type 0 DD (Niki, Aspis, Thyella, Sfendoni, Aetos, Ierax, Panthir, Leon)

Holland
-------
Again, an altered complete listing

Cruiser type 1:
HNMS Java
HNMS Sumatra
HNMS De Ruyter

Cruiser type 0:
HNMS Gelderland
HNMS Hertog Hendrik
HNMS Jakob van Heemskerck

Proposed Destroyer Squads (each of 5)
type 1: 2


Proposed Submarine Flottillas (each of 5 boats)
type 1: 2
+ 1 in building process until 27.01.1936
type 0: 3


Starting Escorts 1936: 21

The Hertog Hendrik and Jacob van Heemskerch were in reserve. When reactivated in 1939 they were rated as guardships. Anything better than type 0 is over rating them. They were over 30 years old anyway.
I can’t find any reference to a “Soerabaia” and so have deleted her.

I find the following submarines
O6, O7, O8, KII, KIII, KIV, KV, KVI, KVII, KVIII, KIX, KX
KXI, KXII, KXIII, O9. O10. O11, O12, O13, O14, O15, KXIV, KXV, KXVI, KXVII, KXVIII, plus the O16 un der construction.
This is enough, I think, to justify the extra type 1


Italy
-----
Again, an alteredcomplete

Battleship type 1
RM Conte di Cavour (+2 NA) (+1 Speed) (should be in modernizing process until 1. June 1937)
RM Giulio Cesare (+2 NA) (+1 Speed) (should be in modernizing process until 1. Oktober 1937)
RM Caio Duilio
RM Andrea Doria


Cruiser type 2
RM Zara
RM Gorizia
RM Fiume
RM Pola
RM Bolzano
RM Trento
RM Trieste

Cruiser type 1
RM Emanuele Filiberto Duca D'Aosta
RM Eugenio DiSavoia (in bulding Process until 16.01.1936)
RM Alberico da Barbiano
RM Bartolomeo Colleoni
RM Giovanni Delle Dande Nere
RM Alberto Di Giussano
RM Raimondo Montecuccoli
RM Muzio Attendolo
RM Luigi Cadorna
RM Armando Diaz

Cruiser type 0
RM Taranto
RM Ancona
RM Bari
RM Pisa
RM San Giorgio
RM Libia
RM Campania
RM Quarto
RM Brindisi
RM Venezia


Proposed Destroyer Squardrons (5 destroyers each):
type 1: 8
type 0: 12


Proposed Submarine Flotillas (5 Subs each):
type 1: 6
+ 1 in building process until February 1936
type 0: 6


Starting Escorts: 47


I’ve deleted the Littorios (type 3’s under my classification), as their actual completion date is too far from the start of the ’36 scenario for them to need to be in the build queue.
Similarly for RM Giuseppe Garibaldi and RM Luigi Di Savoia Duca Degli Abruzzi, the destroyers and most of the submarines listed as building.
Ancona, Bari and Pisa are three ships, not one
RM Giovanni Delle Dande Nere is the correct name, not RM Ciovanni Delle Dande Nere



(note that my complete altereds are based on Adler and Guderian's - I've done this for all the countries, but didn't post them all for space reasons.)

Hopefully I'll be able to post the remaining comments by tomorrow.

Michael

[mhitchens1963]

Some suggestions for ship type names for some of thecountries A-I


Argentina

BB4 Advanced Battleship
BB3 Improved Battleship
BB2 Super dreadnought
BB1 Rivadavia
BB0 Almirante Brown

CA3 Advanced Cruiser
CA2 La Argentina
CA1 Veinticinco de Mayo
CA0 Garibaldi

DD3 Advanced Destroyer
DD2 Improved Destroyer
DD1 Mendoza
DD0 Cordoba

Note that La Argentina was probably really a type 1, but giving type 2 a name adds flavour.


Brazil

BB4 Advanced Battleship
BB3 Improved Battleship
BB2 Super dreadnought
BB1 Minas Gerais
BB0 Deodoro

CA3 Advanced Cruiser
CA2 Improved Cruiser
CA1 Basic Cruiser
CA0 Rio Grande do Sul

DD3 Advanced Destroyer
DD2 Acre
DD1 Marcilio Dias
DD0 Para


Chile

BB4 Advanced Battleship
BB3 Improved Battleship
BB2 Super dreadnought
BB1 Almirante Latorre
BB0 Capitan Prat

CA3 Advanced Cruiser
CA2 Improved Cruiser
CA1 Basic Cruiser
CA0 Chacabuco

DD3 Advanced Destroyer
DD2 Improved Destroyer
DD1 Serrano
DD0 Almirante Lynch


France

BB4 Gascoigne
BB3 Richelieu
BB2 Lyon
BB1 Bretagne
BB0 Danton

CA3 De Grasse
CA2 Suffren
CA1 Duguay Trouin
CA0 Waldeck-Rousseau

DD3 Advanced Destroyer
DD2 Mogador
DD1 Le Fantasque
DD0 Arabe

CV3 Advanced Carrier
CV2 Improved Carrier
CV1 Joffre
CV0 Bearn

SS3 Electro-submarine
SS2 Surcouf
SS1 Redoutable
SS0 Saphir

De Grasse was actually a light cruiser (laid down before and completed after the war), but no names were ever assigned to the projected large heavy cruiser class, so De Grasse will have to do.


Germany

BB4 Frederich the Great
BB3 Bismarck
BB2 Scharnhorst
BB1 Konig
BB0 Schlesien

CA3 Advanced Cruiser
CA2 Hipper
CA1 Konigsberg
CA0 Waldeck-Rousseau

DD3 Z46
DD2 Z23
DD1 Z1
DD0 WW1 destroyer

CV3 Advanced Carrier
CV2 Improved Carrier
CV1 Graf Zepplin
CV0 Seydlitz

SS3 Type XXI
SS2 Type IX
SS1 Type VII
SS0 Type II


Greece

BB4 Advanced Battleship
BB3 Improved Battleship
BB2 Super dreadnought
BB1 Salamis
BB0 Kilkis

CA3 Advanced Cruiser
CA2 Improved Cruiser
CA1 Basic Cruiser
CA0 Giorgios Averoff

DD3 Advanced Destroyer
DD2 Improved Destroyer
DD1 Ydra
DD0 Aetos

Italy

BB4 Advanced Battleship
BB3 Littorio
BB2 Caracciolo
BB1 Cavour
BB0 Regina Elena

CA3 Advanced Cruiser
CA2 Zara
CA1 Condottieri
CA0 San Giorgio

DD3 Advanced Destroyer
DD2 Comandanti
DD1 Soldati
DD0 Navigatori

SS3 Electro-submarine
SS2 Flutto
SS1 Archimede
SS0 Argonauta

CV3 Advanced Carrier
CV2 Improved Carrier
CV1 Aquila
CV0 Sparviero

[mhitchens1963]

Originally Posted by mhitchens1963

(note that my complete altereds are based on Adler and Guderian's - I've done this for all the countries, but didn't post them all for space reasons.)

Michael

I can post my compilation of altered lists, based on Adler and Guderian's work, if people would like.

Michael

[mhitchens1963]

Japan
------
(complete list)
Battleships type 2:
HIJMS Mutsu (+1 NA) (in refitting process until 30.9.1936)
HIJMS Nagato (+1 NA) (in refitting process until 31.1.1936)
HIJMS Haruna (+ 1 Speed)
HIJMS Hiei (no more Speed Bonus)
HIJMS Kongo (+ 1 Speed) (in refitting process until 8.1.1937)
HIJMS Kirishima (+ 1 Speed) (in refitting process until 8.6.1936)
HIJMS Fuso
HIJMS Yamashiro
HIJMS Hyuga (in refitting process until 7.9.1936)
HIJMS Ise (in refitting process until 23.3.1937)

Carrier type 2:
HIJMS Akagi (in refitting process until 15.8.1938)
HIJMS Kaga

Carrier type 0:
HIJMS Ryujo
HIJMS Hosho

Cruiser type 2:
HIJMS Ashigara
HIJMS Haguro
HIJMS Nachi
HIJMS Myoko
HIJMS Atago
HIJMS Chokai
HIJMS Maya
HIJMS Takao
HIJMS Mogami
HIJMS Mikuma

Cruiser type 1:
HIJMS Aoba
HIJMS Kinugasa
HIJMS Furutaka
HIJMS Kako

Cruiser type 0:
HIJMS Abukuma
HIJMS Isuzu
HIJMS Kinu
HIJMS Nagara
HIJMS Natori
HIJMS Yura (in refitting process until 5.12.1936)
HIJMS Yubari
HIJMS Jintsu
HIJMS Naka
HIJMS Sendai
HIJMS Tatsuta
HIJMS Tenryu
HIJMS Kiso
HIJMS Kitakami (typo)
HIJMS Kuma
HIJMS Oi
HIJMS Tama
HIJMS Asama
HIJMS Adzuma
HIJMS Iwate
HIJMS Izumo
HIJMS Kasuga
HIJMS Yakumo

Proposed Destroyer Groups (each of 5 ships)
type 1: 10
+ 1 in building process until June 1936
+ 1 in building process until May 1937
type 0: 10


Proposed Submarine Flottilas (each of 5 boats)
typ 1: 5
+ 1 in building process until September 1937
type 0: 5


Starting escorts 1936: 11

the battleships have been re-rated according to my classification scheme
My sources give slightly more precise dates for the capital ship refits, so I’ve included these.
I have deleted the Soryu as her completion date (29 December 1937) is too far from the start of the scenario for her to begin in the build queue
The Ryujo had an operational maximum aircraft capacity of 37, so I’ve changed her rating to type 0.
While I’ve left the Akagi and Kaga at type 2 I wouldn’t give the Japanese the necessary techs – I’d treat them as a special case.
The name of the IHIJMS zumo has been corrected to the HIJMS Izumo
The name of the HIJMS Azuma has been corrected to the HIJMS Adzuma
The Aoba, Kinugasa, Furutaka and Kako have been changed to cruiser type 0 as they only had 6x8” main armament
The Suzuya, Kumano, Chikuma and Tone have all been removed as their actual completion dates are all too late including on the build queue.


Latvia:
------
no changes


Lithuania:
---------
no changes


Mexico, 1 January 1936:
-------
No changes


New Zealand
------------
No changes, but
Technically the New Zealand navy wasn’t created until 1941, but let’s leave it like this (for flavour if nothing else)


Norway
-------
(edited complete list)
Cruiser level 0
KNM Norge
KNM Eidsvold

Destroyer level 0
Sleipner Group
Draug Group

Submarines level 0
A1 Group
B1 Group

4 escorts

The Norge and Eidsvold were old coast defence ships from 1900 (3645t). Cruiser type 0 is good enough.
The class name was Draug, not Garm.


Persia:
------
no changes


Peru
-----
Name of the 0 Level destroyers should be Guise, not Almirante Guise


Poland
------
no changes



Portugal
--------
no changes


Rumania
--------
No changes





Siam
-----
(edited complete list)
Cruiser type 1:
Sri Ayuthiya (-1 speed, in building process until 31.07.1937)

Proposed Destroyer Groups:
type 0: 1 (in building Process until June 1936)
+ 1 (in building Process until June 1937)

Proposed Submarine Groups:
type 1: 1 (in building process until January 1938)

Starting Escorts: 1

Thonburi (or Dhonburi) was completed too late for inclusion in the build queue at the start of the scenario. I reclassified the Sri Ayuthiya as cruiser type 1, it was only only 2265t, 15.5 knots and armed with 4x8”.



Soviet Union
------------
(edited complete list)
Battleships type 1:
Parizskaya Komuna
Marat (NA + 1) baltic
Oktyabrskaya Revolyuciya (NA + 1)baltic

Cruisers type 1:
Krasnyj Kavkaz

Cruiser type 0:
Aurora
Komintern
Chervona Ukraina
Profintern

Proposed Destroyer Squardrons:
type 0: 3 one in baltic

Proposed Submarine Flotillas (5 Subs each):
type 1: 14
type 0: 13

Starting Escorts for 1936: 20


Kirov and Vorshilov have been removed as they are completed too far from the start of the scenario
Here’s what I can get from my sources for the Soviet submarines in commission 1 Jan 1936:
TYPE 1
S IX Class 2
P IV Class 3
L XI Class 3
L II Class 6
D 1 Class 6
ŠC X Class 12
ŠC V bis2 Class 9
ŠC V bis. Class 12
ŠC V Class 19
(72)

TYPE 0
M VI bis. Class 20
M VI Class 30
L 55 (sunken ex-british Sub, raised & repaired) 1
ŠC III Class 4
Bubnov Class 6
A Class 4
(65)

In addition the following were launched during 1936, but I wouldn’t bother putting anything in the build queue – subs are very quick to build.
L XI class 3
SC X class 13
S IX class 1
S IX bis class 1
M XII class 2

Note, the Kalev’s are Estonian – captured in 1940 and the Ronis’ are Latvian, also captured 1940


Spain
-----
no changes


Sweden:
--------
(edited complete list)
Battleship type 0
HMS Sverige (+1 NA)
HMS Drottning Victoria (+1 NA)
HMS Gustav V (+1 NA)

Cruiser type 1
HMS Gotland (-1 NA, +2 AA)
HMS Äran (-1 Speed)
HMS Manligheten (-1 Speed)
HMS Tapperheten (-1 Speed)
HMS Oscar II (-1 Speed)

Cruiser type 0
HMS Fylgia (+1 GD)
HMS Thor
HMS Oden

Destroyer type 1
Ehrensköld Group

Destroyer type 0
Wrangel Group

Submarine type 1
Draken Group1
Delfinen Group

Submarine type 0
Braxen Group
Valrossen Group


The Clas Fleming was a minelayer with only 4x4.7” guns and little armour – count her as a destroyer.
Thor and Oden, old coast defence ships, were not stricken until 1937 according to my sources, so I have included them.

[mhitchens1963]

Turkey
-------
Remove the Torgud Reis - according to my sources ahe was hulked in 1928


Great Britain
------------
(edited complete list)
Battleships type 3:
HMS Nelson
HMS Rodney

Battleships type 2:
HMS Hood (+ 1 Speed)
HMS Ramillies (- 1 Speed)
HMS Resolution (- 1 Speed)
HMS Revenge (- 1 Speed)
HMS Royal Oak (- 1 Speed)
HMS Royal Sovereign (- 1 Speed)
HMS Barham
HMS Malaya
HMS Queen Elizabeth
HMS Valiant
HMS Warspite
HMS Renown (+ 1 Speed)
HMS Repulse (+ 1 Speed)

Battleships type 1
HMS Iron Duke (reduce stats a lot)

Carriers type 1:
HMS Courageous (+ 1 AD)
HMS Glorious (+ 1 AD)
HMS Ark Royal (+ 1 AD) (in building process until 13.04.1937)

Carriers type 0:
HMS Furious (+ 1 AD)
HMS Argus (+ 1 AD)
HMS Hermes (+ 1 AD)
HMS Eagle (+ 1 AD)

cruisers type 2:
HMS Berwick (in rebuilding process until January 1938)
HMS Cornwall (in rebuilding process until January 1938)
HMS Cumberland (in rebuilding process until January 1938)
HMS Kent (in rebuilding process until January 1938)
HMS Suffolk (in rebuilding process until January 1938)
HMS Devonshire
HMS London
HMS Shropshire
HMS Sussex
HMS Dorsetshire
HMS Norfolk

cruiser type 1:
HMS Exeter
HMS York
HMS Ajax
HMS Neptune
HMS Orion
HMS Arethusa
HMS Galathea
HMS Penelope (in building process until 13.11.1936)

cruiser type 0:
HMS Effingham
HMS Frobisher
HMS Hawkins
HMS Emerald
HMS Enterprise
HMS Caledon
HMS Calypso
HMS Caradoc
HMS Cardiff
HMS Ceres
HMS Coventry
HMS Curaçao
HMS Curlew (-1 NA, +2 AA)
HMS Cairo
HMS Calcutta
HMS Capetown
HMS Carlisle
HMS Columbo
HMS Danae
HMS Dauntless
HMS Delhi
HMS Despatch
HMS Dragon
HMS Diomede (80% strength)
HMS Dunedin (80% strength)
HMS Durban (80% strength)

Proposed Destroyer Flotilla (each of 5 ships):
type 1: 11
+ 1 in building Process until April 1936
+ 1 in building process until July 1936
type 0: 20

Proposed submarine Flotillas (each of 5 ships)
type 1: 5
type 0: 4
+ 1 in building process until June 1936

Starting Escorts 1936: 28


The battleships have been reclassified in accord with my scheme. I’ve included the Iron Duke but she would have needed a substantial refit before being fit for active service. As a result of the Washington Naval Treaty she had two of her five main turrets removed, a substantial portion of the main belt armour was taken out and a number of boilers rendered inoperative so her top speed was 18 knots. I’m not sure exactly what stats to give her, but they should be low.

The Furious only carried 36 aircraft, and so I’ve made her a type 0
Exeter and York have been changed to cruiser type 1 as they had only 6x8” guns
Aurora has been deleted and Penelope added to the build queue in line with their actual completion dates.
Birmingham, Glasgow, Newcastle, Sheffield and Southampton have been deleted in line with their completion dates. These ships should be cruiser type 2’s
Effingham, Frobisher, Hawkins, Emerald and Enterprise are of ww1-period design, and so have been changed to cruiser type 0


Uruguay
--------
Give them a level 0 DD and nothing else

The Uruguay was a 1910 vintage vessel, 1400t, 23kts, 2x4.7”, 2x18” TT, 4x12pdr, 1x6pdr. Better represented as a destroyer. With the gunboats Uruguay posses we can stretch the point and give them a destroyer unit


Venezuala
----------
I couldn't find a listing for Venezula in your stuff. They had 3 gunboats in 1936, perhaps worth an escort point?


Yugoslavia
----------
Again I couldn’t Yugoslavia in your stuff. Here’s what I could find.

7 old (ex-Austro-Hungarian) torpedo boats
5 WW1 period design minelayers
1 type 1 Destroyer (The Dubrovnik)
4 type 1 Submarines (Osvetnik, Smeli, Hrabri, Nebojsa)
2 MTBs (Cetnik, Uskok)

I think that should translate as follows

Type 1 Submarine
1

Type 0 Destroyer
1

Escort points
2

The Dubrovnik is best ignored until the Beograd destroyers are available (37-38). I’ve turned the minelayers into escort points and put the torpedo boats in the DD. Perhaps that’s overstating them a bit, but Yugoslavia doesn’t need 12 escort points and having the TB’s as a unit would look nicer.


USA
----
(edited complete list)
Battleships type 2:
USS Tennessee
USS California
USS Colorado
USS Maryland
USS West Wirginia
USS Pennsylvania
USS Arizona
USS New Mexico
USS Mississippi
USS Idaho

Battleships type 1:
USS Wyoming (minus lots)
USS Arkansas (-1 NA)
USS New York
USS Texas
USS Nevada
USS Oklahoma

Carrier type 2:
USS Yorktown (in build process until 30 September 1937)

Carrier type 1:
USS Lexington
USS Saratoga
USS Ranger

Carrier type 0:
USS Langley (-1 Speed, -1 GD)

Cruisers type 2:
USS Pensacola
USS Salt Lake City
USS Northampton
USS Chester
USS Louisville
USS Chicago
USS Houston
USS Augusta
USS Portland
USS Indianapolis
USS New Orleans
USS Astoria
USS Minneapolis
USS Tuscaloosa
USS San Francisco
USS Quincy (in building process until 9 June 1936)

Cruisers type 1:
USS Omaha
USS Milwaukee
USS Cincinnati
USS Raleigh
USS Detroit
USS Richmond
USS Concord
USS Trenton
USS Marblehead
USS Memphis

Proposed Destroyer Groups (each of 5 Ships)
type 1 (+1 NA) : 1
regular type 1: 3
+ 1 in building process until March 1936
type 0: 42


Proposed Submarine Flottilas (each of 5 boats)
type 1: 2
type 0: 15

Starting Escorts 1936: 3

I’ve rerated the Battleships in line with my classification.
I’ve included the Wyoming – the comments made to the UK’s Iron Duke apply to her.
The Saratoga and Lexington have re-rated type 1 as they carried only 63 aircraft (in 1936 18 fighters, 40 bombers and 5 utility). They may have had a large displacement (37,000 tons) but their design was not as good as later types (such as the Essex) meaning they could not carry as many aircraft.
The Yorktown’s completion date has been changed to the actual date – 30 September 1937
I’ve deleted the Enterprise as her actual completion date (12 May 1938) means she shouldn’t start in the build queue.
Similarly for the Vincennes (completed 24-2-1937) and Wichita (completed 16-2-1939)
The Quincy was not completed until 9 June 1936
The Brooklyn class ships have been deleted as the first was not completed until July 1938. I believe these should be type 2 cruisers – the US changed to this design as they believed it would be superior to the 8” designs on the same tonnage.
I’ve deleted the building submarines and most of the building destroyers as their build time means they shouldn’t be in the build queue at the start of the scenario.

Michael

[mhitchens1963]

Suggestions for some countries only (mainly the ones with larger fleets)

Japan
------
BB4 Yamato
BB3 Tosa
BB2 Nagato
BB1 Ise
BB0 Settsu

CA3 Tone
CA2 Takao
CA1 Aoba
CA0 Sendai

DD3 Akitsuki
DD2 Kagero
DD1 Fubuki
DD0 Minekaze

SS3 I201 type
SS2 I54 type
SS1 I1 type
SS0 RO type

CV3 Advanced Carrier
CV2 Shokaku
CV1 Soryu
CV0 Zuiho

It’s debatable whether the Mogami’s and Tone’s should be type 2’s or type 3’s. A number of possible names could be used for type 2 cruiser (Nachi, Takao or even Mogami if it’s a type 2)


Soviet Union
------------
BB4 Advanced Battleship
BB3 Sovyetskiy Soyuz
BB2 Borodino
BB1 Gangut
BB0 Respublika

CA3 Kronshtadt
CA2 Kirov
CA1 Krasnyi Kavkaz
CA0 Profintern

DD3 Advanced Destroyer
DD2 Leningrad
DD1 Gnevyi
DD0 Minekaze

SS3 Electro-submarine
SS2 Type XIV
SS1 Type V
SS0 Type VI

CV3 Advanced Carrier
CV2 Improved Carrier
CV1 Basic Carrier
CV0 Pre-war carrier


Spain
------
BB4 Advanced Battleship
BB3 Improved Battleship
BB2 Reina Victoria Eugenia
BB1 Espana
BB0 Pelayo

CA3 Advanced Cruiser
CA2 Canarias
CA1 Libertad
CA0 Mendez Nunez

DD3 Advanced Destroyer
DD2 Oquendo
DD1 Churruca
DD0 Alsedo



United Kingdom
--------------
BB4 Lion
BB3 King George V
BB2 Queen Elizabeth
BB1 Iron Duke
BB0 Lord Nelson

CA3 Fiji
CA2 Kent
CA1 Arethusa
CA0 C & D class

DD3 Battle
DD2 J-Z class
DD1 A-I class
DD0 S-W class

SS3 A class
SS2 U class
SS1 T class
SS0 O class

CV3 Malta
CV2 Implacable
CV1 Ark Royal
CV0 Furious


United States
-------------
BB4 Iowa
BB3 North Carolina
BB2 Colorado
BB1 Nevada
BB0 ?? - will fix this


CA3 Des Moines
CA2 New Orleans
CA1 Omaha
CA0 Chester

DD3 Gearing
DD2 Fletcher
DD1 Faragut
DD0 Flush Deckers

SS3 Electro-submarine
SS2 Gato class
SS1 Barracuda class
SS0 S class

CV3 Midway
CV2 Yorktown
CV1 Lexington
CV0 Langley


Naming ship types is a bit iffy - picking the class to represent is a bit of a judegment call, but these should do

Michael