Hundred Years War

[Lambert Simnel]

Bringing over the discussion of the wanderings of the French capital from the bugs & fixes thread.

My interpretation of the inital situation (Burgundy and the Queen rule France from Paris but are unwilling to take action against the English invaders) could be represented by having FRA controlling Ile de France but the only force in Northern France is the army of Burgundy, which starts neutral. Ile de France is not controlled by Burgundy because Jean sans peur is wearing his regent of France hat not his duke of Burgundy hat.

If we can't set up Caux to start French controlled but with a nearly succesful English seige (Rouen asked for terms on 30th December 1418 but didn't surrender until 20th January) then it should be English controlled. Normandie, I would have English owned as, given the turbulent nature of French politics after Agincourt, I find it hard to believe France didn't suffer at least one collapse during the intervening period.

Some incomplete events can be found below

event = {
	id = 1350000
	trigger = {
#triggered by an earlier not yet written event for FRA that fires 
#when ENG takes Paris and gives the dauphin the choice of 
#either meeting with Duke Jean or continuing to feud with him.
#At the meeting the Dauphin's supporters murdered the Duke,
#thus triggering this event. (It is generally considered that the 
#Dauphin was not involved in the assassination plot.)
#Alternatively spurning him loses stability and worsens relations
#with Burgundy, probably to the point of war
		}
	random = no
	country =BUR
	name = "The murder of Jean sans peur"
	desc = "After the murder of his father in a parley with 
the Dauphin, Burgundy's new duke and his ally, Queen Isabelle, 
sought aid from the English. Isabelle declared that the Dauphin 
wasn't the child of Charles VI, but instead was the product of an 
afair. The Treaty of Troyes, which Isabella signed on behalf of the 
mad king, made Henry V not only the new heir to the French 
throne, but also Charles VI's regent. A marriage between Henry V
 and the French princess Catherine would unite the warring 
houses of Plantagenet and de Valois ushering in a perpetual 
peace once the so-called Dauphin was defeated."
	style = 1
	date = { day =1 month =january year = 1419 }
	offset = 0

		action_a = {
			name = "We need England's help against the Dauphin"
			command = { type = relation which = ENG value = 200}
			command = { type = relation which = FRA value = -50}
			command = { type = stability value = 1}
			}
		action_b = {
			name = "Let this pointless feud end"
			command = { type = relation which = ENG value = -100}
			command = { type = relation which = FRA value = 50}	
			command = { type = DIP which = -2 value = 48}
			command = { type = sleepevent which = 1350001}
			}
		action_c = {
			name = "Our armies will avenge him"
			command = { type = war which = FRA}
			command = { type = relation which = FRA value = -100}	
			command = { type = relation which = ENG value = 20}
			command = { type = sleepevent which = 1350001}
			}
}

event = {
	id = 1350001
	trigger = {
		event = 1350000
		}
	random = no
	country =FRA
	name = "The Treaty of Troyes"
	desc = "After the murder of his father in a parley with 
the Dauphin, Burgundy's new duke and his ally, Queen Isabelle, 
sought aid from the English. Isabelle declared that the Dauphin 
wasn't the child of Charles VI, but instead was the product of an 
afair. The Treaty of Troyes, which Isabella signed on behalf of the 
mad king, disinherited the Dauphin and made King Henry V of 
England the new heir."
	style = 1
	date = { day = 21 month =may year = 1420 }
	offset = 0

	action_a = {
		name = "The Dauphin fights on"
		command = { type = capital value = 410}
		command = { type = relation which = ENG value = -100}
		command = { type = relation which = BUR value = -50}
		command = { type = stability value = -1}
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = ENG value = 385 }#Ile de France
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = ENG value = 376 }#Champagne
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = ENG value = 383 }#Picardie
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = ENG value = 386 }#Nivernais
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = ENG value = 411 }#Orleanais
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = ENG value = 412 }#Maine
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = BUR value = 385 }#Ile de France
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = BUR value = 376 }#Champagne
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = BUR value = 383 }#Picardie
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = BUR value = 386 }#Nivernais
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = BUR value = 411 }#Orleanais
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = BUR value = 412 }#Maine
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = BUR value = 379 }#Artois
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = BUR value = 380 }#Flandern
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = BUR value = 387 }#Franche Comté
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = ENG value = 379 }#Artois
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = ENG value = 380 }#Flandern
		command = { type = secedeprovince which = ENG value = 387 }#Franche Comté


#also triggers events to switch provinces between ENG and BUR
#so that each finishes with the 'right' provinces.


		command = { type = independence which = U10 }
                		command = { type = independence which = HAU }
		command = { type = independence which = GEL }
		command = { type = independence which =LUX }
		command = { type = independence which = FRI }
		command = { type = independence which = KOL }
		command = { type = independence which = LOR }
		command = { type = independence which = STR }
		command = { type = independence which = PFA }
		}
	action_b = {
		name = "The Dauphin surrenders (End Game)"
		command = { type = independence which = AUV }
                		command = { type = independence which = ORL }
		command = { type = independence which = BOU }
		command = { type = independence which =NAV }
		command = { type = independence which = BRI }
		command = { type = independence which = SAV }
		command = { type = independence which = LOR }
		command = { type = independence which = PRO }
		command = { type = independence which = AQU }
		command = { type = independence which = U17 }
		command = { type = independence which = U10 }
                		command = { type = independence which = HAU }
		command = { type = independence which = GEL }
		command = { type = independence which =LUX }
		command = { type = independence which = FRI }
		command = { type = independence which = KOL }
		command = { type = independence which = STR }
		command = { type = independence which = PFA }
		command = { type = trigger which = 1350002}
		}
}
event = {

	id = 1350002	
	random = no
	country =ENG
	name = "King Henri"
	desc = "The Dauphin has submitted to our rule and 
Henry is king of both England and France."
	style = 1

	action_a ={			#Its all mine!#
		name = "ACTIONNAME3319A"
		command = { type = inherit which = FRA }
	}
}

event = {

	id =1350003
	trigger = {
		event = 1350001
		owned = { province = 385 data = -1 } 
		control = { province = 385 data = -1 } 
		}
	random = no
	country = FRA
	name = "Return to Paris"
	desc = ""
	style = 1

	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1419 }
	offset = 0
	deathdate = { day = 30 month = december year = 1819 }

	action_a ={			
		name = "We have returned"
		command = { type = capital which = 385 }
		command = { type = stability value = 1}
	}
}

[Garbon]

I don't know much, but these suggestions (as brought up before) by renaud vibien in the french forum seem interesting.

La Bourgogne correspond aux possessions patrimoniales de Jean sans Peur.
Elle possède : la Bourgogne et la Flandres (pour ce qui se trouve dans le Royaume de France).
Capitale : Bourgogne (Dijon)
Elle a la France en vassal. Elle est en guerre avec le Dauphiné et l'Angleterre.

La Bretagne correspond aux possessions patrimoniales du duc Jean V.
Elle possède : les trois provinces bretonnes.
Capitale : Nantes.
N'est en guerre, ni n'est allié avec personne.

La France correspond au reste du royaume reconnaissant le gouvernement de Charles VI dominé par les Bourguignons.
Elle possède : Haute- et Basse-Normandie (contrôlées par l'Angleterre), Ile-de-France, Picardie, Artois, Nivernais, Languedoc.
Capitale : Ile-de-France (Paris)
Elle est vassale de la Bourgogne. Elle est en guerre avec l'Angleterre (qui occupe déjà les deux Normandie) et le Dauphiné.

Le Dauphiné correspond au reste du royaume rconnaissant le Dauphin Charles commer régent.
Il possède : Champagne, Maine, Orléanais, Guyenne, Vendée, Berri,Poitou, Limousin, Auvergne,Cévennes, Lyonnais, Dauphiné.
Capitale : Berri (Bourges).
En guerre contre Angleterre, France, Bourgogne.

[Johnny Canuck]

Thanks for opening up this thread, Lambert Simnel. This is a topic that definitely needs to be looked at, and considering the scope of debate in various threads recently, it is good to have one thread just for this topic. If no one objects, I can make sure that everything agreed to here gets included in the EEP (that will also give me the chance to change the British Isles events to account for what has been decided here).

France - Bourgogne 1, France - Bourgogne 2, France - Bourgogne 3, & Jeanne d'Arc - les events, all from the French forum & by Sire Philippe, are an interesting & detailed series of events for the HYW that should definitely be looked at.

Situation de la France en 1419, une nouvelle approche : Armagnacs et Bourguignons, also from the French forum & by renaud vibien, is the elaboration on the quotation posted by Garbon.

Auvergne, which contains some discussion on the French minors & the situation in 1419.

Also, there is some discussion relevant to the HYW in the EEP British Isles thread, although it deals more with the aftermath of an English victory than the war itself (see my sig for the link).

Hopefully the above listed threads provide some context & ideas for the discussion.

[Johnny Canuck]

Originally posted by Lambert Simnel
If we can't set up Caux to start French controlled but with a nearly succesful English seige (Rouen asked for terms on 30th December 1418 but didn't surrender until 20th January) then it should be English controlled.

I'm not sure if this could be done or not, but even if it were possible in a technical sense, my fear would be that the AI would lift the seige on Jan. 1st to go march somewhere else, which would be the last thing we would want to happen.

[Duc de Guise]

so the siege must be successfull in the start of the game...
nevermind if it is 19 days before the true fall of the city...

[renaud vibien]

And the decision of Rouen's surrendering was made the 02 january. The 17 folowing days was used to negotiate only the details of the surrendering.

[Lord Tarleton]

Ref: Lambert Simnel Events
Fairly cool start, really liked the descriptions! But I do have a few questions on where your going and what the assumptions are.

1. First the geek stuff. In event 1350001 you a series of provinces being given to both ENG and BUR, wouldn't the program execute these in order and ignore the dupe? I assume this was a type-o, if not what is the situation you are trying to create?

2. Looking at your comments on triggers, I get the impression your trying to get the game to create a specific set of circumstances; am I correct? Of course, if answered the first question, you already answered this one.

3. Are events your working on assuming that Henry V dies or do you plan on creating a dormant monarch and leader for activation by an event?

4. Are the events your working on an expansion of what is already in the current EEP, or as I look at them should I assume the EEP does not exist?

I was going to start writing events on this myself, but seeing how you've went and got motivated... Hmmm, maybe I should start talking about writing events for an english crusade following the HYW. Then maybe Fate will pop-up and start expanding on his lone event!?!

Seriously speaking (for a change of pace), one past symptom of an english victory in the HYW have been high badboy. This in-turn can lead to badboy wars which can commit you to a WC game. Another symptom is of course boredom, and occasionally pondering the logic of an event when you hold France. Thus my original interest in writing events for an alternate history England was to deal with:

1. Getting rid of some badboy using the recent badboy command, and what better way to make christian europe think your really a great guy than liberating the holy lands. And it also gives you something interesting to do.

2. Address the future problems with nationalism that a victorious England is almost sure to cause.

3. Look at the rest of western europe and try to calculate the effects on neighbours. One question I have had in the back of my mind is if Henry V was successful in assurting his claim, would that in-turn increase anybody else's claims in or around France?

What I'm really interested in is how many want to write events related to this area and the subjects they want to take on. Is there anyone with a handle on this? Johnny Canuck?

[Fate]

I was going to start writing events on this myself, but seeing how you've went and got motivated... Hmmm, maybe I should start talking about writing events for an english crusade following the HYW. Then maybe Fate will pop-up and start expanding on his lone event!?!

Huh?

I guess you mean this from David Hume's History of England:
(Sorry for any typos, I copied it rather quickly)

He next applied himself to his devotions, and orders his chaplain to recite the seven penitential psalms. When that passage of the fifty-first psalm was read, "Build thou the walls of Jerusalem," he interrupted the chaplain, and declared his serious intention, after he should have fully subuded France, to conduct a crusade against the infidels and recover possessions of the Holy Land. So ingenious are men in deceiving themselves, that Henry forgot, in those moments, all the blood spilt from his ambition, and received comfort from his late and feeble resolve, which, as the mode of these enterprises was now past, he certainly would have never carried into execution. He expired in the thirty-fourth year of his age and the tenth of his reign.

[Lord Tarleton]

Fate that would be the one, you got credit for the event in the EEP as seen below:

#To the Holy Land?#
# Created by Fate #
event = {

id = 21901
trigger = {
owned = { province = 385 data = ENG }
atwar = no
}
random = no
country = ENG
name = "To the Holy Land?"
desc = "Near his death while the passage of the fifty-first psalm was being read King Henry V declared that after France was fully subdued there should be a crusade conducted against the infidels and that England should recover the Holy Land."
style = 1

date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1419 }
deathdate = { day = 6 month = july year = 1480 }

action_a ={ #No#
name = "This is Utter Nonsense"
command = { type = manpower value = 10 }
command = { type = stability value = -1 }
}
action_b ={ #Yes#
name = "Send Out a Small Expedition."
command = { type = relation which = PAP value = 25 }
command = { type = desertion which = -1 value = 7500 }
command = { type = treasury value = -100 }
}
action_c ={ #Yes#
name = "Yes, the Holy Land Shall Be Ours!"
command = { type = relation which = PAP value = 75 }
command = { type = relation which = KNI value = 75 }
command = { type = relation which = BYZ value = 75 }
command = { type = relation which = VEN value = 75 }
command = { type = vp value = 25 }
command = { type = casusbelli which = MAM value = 600 }
command = { type = transports which = 247 value = 10 }
command = { type = treasury value = -600 }
}
}


I swear, this place is like a bar. You mention someone and then they show up.

[Fate]

I swear, this place is like a bar. You mention someone and then they show up.

Hehe . I won't intrude on your crusader events, I assure you.

[Ayeshteni]

Hmmm I know I am a stranger in these here parts but for my two Euros worth.

Have an event for England 'the treaty of Troyes' which is the start of a chain of events (literally), Burgandy can accept (bump up relations with England, down with France) and France can accept or not.

If France accepts (queen Isabeau de Baviere, as mentioned above) then 'Dauphin France' breaks away from France (independent nation) and Dauphin capital moves to Bourges (I admittedly have an extensive set of events where you become dauphin france and fight to regain your inheritence, but hey I can see it would not be up everyones street). England then gets the marriage to Catherine de Valois to Henry V. Then have a set number of events to make sure dauphine france gets back into the fold

1) Dauphine France does not heed Jeanne d'Arc and the dauphin gives up (which would have happened), France inherits Dauphine France but suffers debilitating effects.

2) Dauphine France captures and owns Champagne. Charles VII gets crowned in the cathedral of Reims and becomes France under his 'rule'. (I had owns Paris, but it would then require that all of France be retaken, so I made it Reims).

3) 1461 trundles around. A fail safe, England is involved with the War of the Roses and France takes the opportunity to re-establish itself. Charles VII takes control of France, French line, events set back on track.

The events sequence are that if France accepts, the Duke of Bedford takes the regency for Henry VI, France becomes allies with Burgundy and England and Dauphin France takes up the mantle of the French cause.

The events I have done (not to blow me own trumpet) are good, fun, somewhat historically accurate and work suprisingly well. If anyone is interested I could send them to ya and you could laugh, snort, rip to shit at your leisure .

I think something is needed. The EEP model at mo is good, I like but doesn't work yet (not to say it wont )

Just me trying to nudge in
Keep up the good work (an independent Dauphine France would do the trick i am sure

Yours, blatently plugging me own work
A.

[Lord Tarleton]

Ayeshteni
Please feel free to post or e-mail me your events, they sound interesting. Who knows, some of them may make it in the next version of the EEP. The only downside I see is that it sounds like we would need a tag to fully implement all your work; that could be a fight.

Looking through the related threads, we seem to have two main goals. One, improve the current representation of the HYW. And two, create some fantasy events for an english player who wins the HYW. So, if you've got something that's been play tested (even from the French side), it would help us if you posted it.

[Garbon]

Originally posted by Lord Tarleton
Ayeshteni
Please feel free to post or e-mail me your events, they sound interesting. Who knows, some of them may make it in the next version of the EEP. The only downside I see is that it sounds like we would need a tag to fully implement all your work; that could be a fight.

It has to be better than a Finland revolter, right?

[Johnny Canuck]

Some early thoughts:

My thoughts about the Treaty of Troyes is that it should not be directly linked to England controlling Paris - my concern would be that, more times than not, the English AI would not capture Paris, & we would want Treaty of Troyes to happen in most cases. My suggestion would be that the Treaty should instead trigger as soon as England & France are not at way, & should trigger on the countrysize of France. We know exactly how many provinces France starts with, & so the trigger would be if France is one province smaller (or worse). Considering the narrow time frame between the start of the scenario & a likely peace between England & France, it is unlikely that France is going to DOW anyone else & win provinces in a peace to offset losses to England or Burgundy. Using the countrysize trigger has the advantage of ensuring that the Treaty occurs if France loses the war, which, considering the initial setup, should almost always happen with the AI in charge. Delinking the Treaty from the English controlling Paris may not be 100% historical, but it has the (IMHO superior) advantage of ensuring that the Treaty almost always happens.

Ayeshtani - Strangers always welcome! If you can read French, renaud vibien has posted similar ideas in the Situation de la France en 1419, une nouvelle approche : Armagnacs et Bourguignons thread I mentioned above. I'd certainly be interested in your events, so feel free to e-mail them to me at wesley_ferris@hotmail.com, although please zip it as I don't have much room left & I wouldn't want your e-mail to bounce back to you.

[Black Dragon]

RANT MODE ON

This thread is my original copyrighted idea. The spurious thread "Hundred Years War" must be closed and "immediately" substituted by a "EEP Hundred Years War" (TM) thread started by Black Dragon (TM).

RANT MODE OFF

Seriously, I like a lot of the ideas expressed so far: I think we all agree the a Treaty of Troyes event should be added in the next EEP version.

These are only two random thoughts:

1) IMHO it's too easy for a human player playing England to win the HYW in the EEP. I grew tired of being able to annex France in two quick wars and for this reason I stopped playing England as human player a lot of time ago. Adding "fantasy" events in case of an English victory can partially resolve the problem, but IMHO a better compromise between historical realism and game balance (i.e giving France some chance of surviving in the long run) could be achieved.

2) The "End of Hundred Years War" events must be tweaked: I would like to see a more complex representation of the "stalemate" resulting after 1453. In the real world there was no "End of Hundred Years War" event and I would love to see this fact represented in some way in the game.

Any comment, criticism and even rebuttal is welcomed and appreciated.

[Isaac Brock]

Originally posted by Garbon
It has to be better than a Finland revolter, right?

Or a Poland crippling Masovia?

[Garbon]

Originally posted by Isaac Brock
Or a Poland crippling Masovia?

Oh, would implementing Masovia be too much work? I mean in the spirit of re-visitng things, why don't we just introduce Masovia and then help this 'crippled' Poland to not be crippled?


BTW, I think this thread is about the Hundred Years War, so I think talking about Masovia is a little off topic...

[Johnny Canuck]

Ayeshteni - I got your e-mail, but for some reason I couldn't open the file you sent me. Perhaps it got corrupted in transit or some such thing. Anyway, can you try to send it to me again? Sorry about this.

[Twoflower]

How about reusing the French minor tags (ORL, AUV and BOU) for this to prevent this from becoming a discussion about Masovia or provoking strong reactions from some crazy Finnish nationalist ?

[Lord Tarleton]

Originally posted by Johnny Canuck

My thoughts about the Treaty of Troyes is that it should not be directly linked to England controlling Paris - my concern would be that, more times than not, the English AI would not capture Paris, & we would want Treaty of Troyes to happen in most cases. My suggestion would be that the Treaty should instead trigger as soon as England & France are not at way, & should trigger on the countrysize of France. We know exactly how many provinces France starts with, & so the trigger would be if France is one province smaller (or worse). Considering the narrow time frame between the start of the scenario & a likely peace between England & France, it is unlikely that France is going to DOW anyone else & win provinces in a peace to offset losses to England or Burgundy. Using the countrysize trigger has the advantage of ensuring that the Treaty occurs if France loses the war, which, considering the initial setup, should almost always happen with the AI in charge. Delinking the Treaty from the English controlling Paris may not be 100% historical, but it has the (IMHO superior) advantage of ensuring that the Treaty almost always happens.

Concur, as it seems we are heading in the direction of making the Treaty of Troyes a part of the standard EEP campaign. Certainly can't think of a better way, now if we a PEACE command to work with...