Dialogue on improving the AI

Insigna · 22-10-2003, 06:43

I love this game! It is more realistic than civilization and more addictive than anything. Yet its only weakness is the comp's AI. I want to start a Dialogue on Specific ways to improve it.

Here are two I will offer now:

The AI should not send many more units to attack a province that can't support them thus causing massive atrition.

Also the AI seems to have troble dealing with rebels often sending few troops who will lose when many more who are near by would be more effective.

Thats all I got right now. I had some more I which I will try to remember.

robin74 · 22-10-2003, 06:51

Quote:

Originally posted by Insigna
The AI should not send many more units to attack a province that can't support them thus causing massive atrition.

This may cause some new problems. What do you propose AI should do if it wants to capture a province with a small-medium fort and a support limit of 2-4 units? I'm sure it would be best if AI was able to distinguish this from a casual siege and learn to deal with it in a different way but I'm not sure it would be easily implementable.

Insigna · 22-10-2003, 06:56

It would be hard to implement but it is doable. I have seen the AI lose 100,000 troops due to atrition during a seige.

robin74 · 22-10-2003, 07:09

As long as we're with a combat system:

- AI breaking almost finished sieges for no apparent reason (then returning next month to start a new siege in the same province);
- AI failing to recognize one of its provinces is under siege, moving large armies between two AI-controlled provinces rather than attacking one that's besieged.

magdat · 22-10-2003, 12:58

- Let AI start attacking enemy provinces which are not besieged or captured by rebels. Take on those rebel provinces latest if possible.

Insigna · 24-10-2003, 12:32

The AI should consider the usefulness of an alliance before entering into one. I often see innane alliances.

Desertfox · 24-10-2003, 13:35

Quote:

Originally posted by robin74
As long as we're with a combat system:

- AI breaking almost finished sieges for no apparent reason (then returning next month to start a new siege in the same province);
- AI failing to recognize one of its provinces is under siege, moving large armies between two AI-controlled provinces rather than attacking one that's besieged.

AI does try to lift an enemy siege but only if it is already in yellow or worse. This makes sense; otherwise you can make the ai go nuts by running around with a cavalry army starting sieges everywhere while slower enemy armies follow you around. That would make the AI totally passive and reactive. AI seems to prefer lifting late-stage sieges on its own territory over attacking my provinces. I sometimes use that to draw the AI away from my own territory in a defensive war.

Also I notice that leaving the siege and returning is done mostly after a reload. AI seems to want to group its forces in an adjacent province before attacking (which makes sense) but fails to see that its forces are already doing something useful.

Chaingun · 24-10-2003, 16:04

The problems here boils down to raw CPU power. The more often the AI has to perform tactical checks; the more CPU power is required. Though I agree some more simple checks sometimes really could improve tactical AI behaviour.

Cagliostro · 26-10-2003, 13:04

I'm pretty sure that I know why the AI breaks sieges. It's pretty simple-minded. It has a general program which is something like:

1) Attempt to seize the province with the best ratio of desirability to difficulty, considering fortifications but not weather conditions.
2) Continue to send any spare troops to that province, on a route which avoids enemy troops, if possible. Do not reroute the group after the destination is determined, even if enemy troops move in the way of your attack.
3) If you have sufficient troops, add another province to your list.
4) If you seize an enemy province, send all units home so that you can regroup and decide what to do.
5) If an enemy is in danger of seizing your province, send all units home so that you can regroup and decide what to do.
6) If none of these actions are feasible, try to seize back a rebel-controlled province for yourself or your allies.
7) Demand absurd amounts of money and/or property.

Ilkhold · 26-10-2003, 14:24

I am not so sure. I have seen an outrageous breaking off of a siege.
I played Granada and was allied with Karaman in a war against Venice.

Now Venice owned Antalya next to two Karaman provinces and invaded on of them, while Karaman invaded Antalya.
As it happens, Venice got on with their siege better than Karaman and the latter broke their siege retreating home to take back their now fallen city. Now Venice used that chance to go for the second Karaman province, the capital.
So I stepped in and shipped an army to that province to beat back the venetian besiegers, who haven't made any visible progress so far, while Karaman was getting on with their siege very well.
Now just after I routed and totally destroyed the army of Venice Karaman stopped sieging and retreated to their capital, which now was out of danger.

The only possible threat there was by venice now, was a few men, standing around in a remote Karaman province in western africa, unable to do anything harmful because they weren't enough to start a siege.

Isn't that stupid? Karaman stopped taking their own national province back just before the fall of the fortress, just because their was an army of no importance in a totally unimportant province.
I quickly destroyed that enemy army aswell and started to besiege the Venice hold province of Karaman myself.
It took Karaman another 10 months to get its army into action again.

The Impaler · 26-10-2003, 17:37

I've seen some ridiculous breaking off of sieges - the worst ones tend to involve France, who I've seen break off a siege in Normandy, England's last remaining continental territory, in order to go and declare war on Aragon (and lose the war) and then only a couple of months away from total annexation of Bourbonnais decide to accept 30 ducats instead.
In another case, England went to war with Scotland, it dragged on and there were rebellions in Cornwall and Wales, and then France and Lorraine declared war as well. After the wars ended and the rebel armies were beaten England totally ignored the rebel held provinces, instead sending a massive force into Normandy while half of England remained in rebel hands for years afterward.

22-10-2003, 06:43	#1
Insigna Second Lieutenant Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: San Jose, CA, USA Posts: 162	Dialogue on improving the AI I love this game! It is more realistic than civilization and more addictive than anything. Yet its only weakness is the comp's AI. I want to start a Dialogue on Specific ways to improve it. Here are two I will offer now: The AI should not send many more units to attack a province that can't support them thus causing massive atrition. Also the AI seems to have troble dealing with rebels often sending few troops who will lose when many more who are near by would be more effective. Thats all I got right now. I had some more I which I will try to remember.

22-10-2003, 07:09	#4
robin74 Dux Slaviensis Join Date: May 2002 Location: Province #291 Posts: 2,594	As long as we're with a combat system: - AI breaking almost finished sieges for no apparent reason (then returning next month to start a new siege in the same province); - AI failing to recognize one of its provinces is under siege, moving large armies between two AI-controlled provinces rather than attacking one that's besieged. __________________ "The answer to your question is 42". Deep Thought Playing EU2 1.07, February 7 beta, no mods, VH/N

22-10-2003, 12:58	#5
magdat People before principle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Netherlands Posts: 1,175	- Let AI start attacking enemy provinces which are not besieged or captured by rebels. Take on those rebel provinces latest if possible. __________________ Voting is the legitimised depositing of opinions, which are not required to be supported by arguments. EU2 1.08b, AGCEEP 1.3.6 - CK 1.04b - Vicky 1.03c, VIP 0.4b

26-10-2003, 13:04	#9
Cagliostro Charlatan or Mystic? Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: NYC Posts: 2,563	Secrets of the AI I'm pretty sure that I know why the AI breaks sieges. It's pretty simple-minded. It has a general program which is something like: 1) Attempt to seize the province with the best ratio of desirability to difficulty, considering fortifications but not weather conditions. 2) Continue to send any spare troops to that province, on a route which avoids enemy troops, if possible. Do not reroute the group after the destination is determined, even if enemy troops move in the way of your attack. 3) If you have sufficient troops, add another province to your list. 4) If you seize an enemy province, send all units home so that you can regroup and decide what to do. 5) If an enemy is in danger of seizing your province, send all units home so that you can regroup and decide what to do. 6) If none of these actions are feasible, try to seize back a rebel-controlled province for yourself or your allies. 7) Demand absurd amounts of money and/or property. __________________ Buy from Paradox, damn you! EU3 : Imago Dei, a polite alternative enhanced and corrected Protestant and Reformed spread, expanded cultures and governments (with proper titles), gradual technological advancements (including escape from primitive status), Taoism, Mahayana and Theravada schools of Buddhism, the Ibadi, the Wahhabist movement, Sikhs, Sufis, Jews, and a tougher all-around game - but dynamic and simplistic

22-10-2003, 06:56	#3
Insigna Second Lieutenant Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: San Jose, CA, USA Posts: 162	It would be hard to implement but it is doable. I have seen the AI lose 100,000 troops due to atrition during a seige.

24-10-2003, 12:32	#6
Insigna Second Lieutenant Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: San Jose, CA, USA Posts: 162	The AI should consider the usefulness of an alliance before entering into one. I often see innane alliances.

24-10-2003, 16:04	#8
Chaingun Immortal Lobster of Wheeling Demi Moderator Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: United States of Europe, Lund Posts: 2,528 Blog Entries: 28	The problems here boils down to raw CPU power. The more often the AI has to perform tactical checks; the more CPU power is required. Though I agree some more simple checks sometimes really could improve tactical AI behaviour.

26-10-2003, 14:24	#10
Ilkhold Lt. General Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Aachen / Aix la Chapelle / Aken Posts: 1,208	I am not so sure. I have seen an outrageous breaking off of a siege. I played Granada and was allied with Karaman in a war against Venice. Now Venice owned Antalya next to two Karaman provinces and invaded on of them, while Karaman invaded Antalya. As it happens, Venice got on with their siege better than Karaman and the latter broke their siege retreating home to take back their now fallen city. Now Venice used that chance to go for the second Karaman province, the capital. So I stepped in and shipped an army to that province to beat back the venetian besiegers, who haven't made any visible progress so far, while Karaman was getting on with their siege very well. Now just after I routed and totally destroyed the army of Venice Karaman stopped sieging and retreated to their capital, which now was out of danger. The only possible threat there was by venice now, was a few men, standing around in a remote Karaman province in western africa, unable to do anything harmful because they weren't enough to start a siege. Isn't that stupid? Karaman stopped taking their own national province back just before the fall of the fortress, just because their was an army of no importance in a totally unimportant province. I quickly destroyed that enemy army aswell and started to besiege the Venice hold province of Karaman myself. It took Karaman another 10 months to get its army into action again.

26-10-2003, 17:37	#11
The Impaler Field Marshal Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 2,814	I've seen some ridiculous breaking off of sieges - the worst ones tend to involve France, who I've seen break off a siege in Normandy, England's last remaining continental territory, in order to go and declare war on Aragon (and lose the war) and then only a couple of months away from total annexation of Bourbonnais decide to accept 30 ducats instead. In another case, England went to war with Scotland, it dragged on and there were rebellions in Cornwall and Wales, and then France and Lorraine declared war as well. After the wars ended and the rebel armies were beaten England totally ignored the rebel held provinces, instead sending a massive force into Normandy while half of England remained in rebel hands for years afterward.