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western slavs suggestions
As promised, my 'short' suggestions for western slavs:
SETUP: 1. Obodrittes (afaik that's the correct English version of Abodritten) should get Mecklemburg instead of Vorpommern - the Obodritte state basically became Mecklemburg later (the christianized Slavic dynasty ruled that country till 17th century). Against the good old Lubeck-argument one can say that Lubeck was till 1100 indeed a part of slavic Mecklemburg (was even founded by Obodritte duke Gotschalk). Obodrittes should get a core on Holstein as the eastern half of that province (as on the map) was part of their domein as well (the Wagrien-territory) If for some reason you might want to make Holstein Obodrite, the town there should be Starigard (todays Oldenburg im Wagrien) capitol: Mechlin (Rerik wasn't the capitol) religion: pagan till ~1000 culture: Obodrite is fine but if you are short of culture Polabian will do as well graphics: You can better use the old Meckleburg coa (with the bull). Kashubian griffin is certainly wrong here ;) dp suggestions: strong centralization (had always strong kings) and trade-like although not naval, somewhat innovative (as in: early to accept christianity) monarchs: the list is known since ~940, will post them later 2. Weleti (Weletians? or Lutici - Liutizen in German; you can even call them the Weleti Confederation) should then get Vorpommern. Perhaps core on Brandenburg where some Weleti tribes were also dwelling. capitol: Radogost (was more of a temple-town than a proper capitol perhaps - it was the holliest place of western Slavic pagans) religion: pagan (Weleti were never properly converted) culture: Weletian (if separate preferred) or Polabian graphics: can't help dp suggestion: in contrary to Obodrittes they were hardly centralized, nor tradelike. Weleti had a tribal council where the tribes came togother to take decision. The separate tribes had afaik elected kings though. The Weleti were as such also known as the Weleti Confederation which by itself was actually a strong state. Very offensive, and de-innovative. monarchs: separate tribal monarchs are not known, as said the Tribal Council was the primary body of power for the whole Confederation. 3. Hevelians (from Germ. Heveller, from the Havel river near Berlin) or Stodorans as they called themselves. Should be placed in Brandenburg. They were only one of the many tribes which could cover that province, but they were as such important as that they were probably the most powerful, their capitol gave the name to that province and they are about the best documented German Slavic tribe. Therefor my suggestion on them. capitol: Brenna (old slavic name of Brandenburg, city near Berlin) religion: pagan (christianized late 10th century iirc) culture: Hevelian if separate, otherwise Polabian (they were quite familiar to Weleti) graphics: can't help dp suggestion: Also Stodorans had relatively strong kingship but were not tradelike. Landbased, not extremely offensive. monarchs: A list is known since ~900, with one monarch in late 8th century, later more 4. Lusitians (or Sorbs as you called them) had various tribes in Sachsen, Meissen, Lausitz and northern Bohemia up to west Silesia. I suggest to add 2 tribes of each 1-province: in Sachsen (which was definitely slavic at that time) and in Erz. 4a: Chuditians (not sure of the spelling, Chudzice in Polish) would be in Sachsen (their homeare was around/near modern Leipzig). I don't have that much info on them as yet (the northern tribes are as such definitely better documented). capitol: Unsure, probably Leipzig (Lipsk in slavic languages) which was slavic at that time, though only founded around 900. religion: pagan, were christianized early, already halfway the 10th century culture: sorbic/sorbian/lusitian whatever name you wish for it graphics: can't help dp: rather defensive, further dunno monarchs: just 1 monarch is known, duke Kuchawica, mentionned by Germ. chronicler Thietmar as ruler in 970. 4b: Miltzans (or Milchans perhaps?) would be in Erz then. A relatively wellknown and powerful tribe at that time. capitol: most probably Budysin (sorbic name, germ Bautzen) which was the most important town there since 10th century religion: pagan, remained reactionary pagan far into the 11th century culture: sorbic/lusitian graphics: dunno dp: offensive, landbased, mercantile & decentralized monarchs: no info here, think they had a system similar to Weleti, although not so known as the previous 5: Bohemia (Czechs) look fine. Perhaps small changes only. -Czech for Prag is Praha if you want original names -Czechs were christianized around 880 -monarchs: your list starts with the historical monarchs in ~860 but there are 8-10 earlier monarchs from the semi-legendary and oral tradition. The list (for which there are also dates 'known', although I suspect these were later made up) starts around ~700 and goes as such: Krok, his daughter Libuse who married to Premysl Orac (Legendary father of the Premyslide dynasty and duke of Boehmia thereafter thus), Nezamysl, Mnata, Vojen, Unislav, Kresomysl, Neklan and Hostivit who was the father of Borivoj, first documented Bohemian duke. If you want these made up dates as well I will post them later. 6: Moravia (Moravians) should be quite powerful as they managed to form in the early 800's a powerful (though semi-legendary as well, as in: not all historians trust it) state stretching fover Bohemia, Slovakia, southern Poland and north Hungary. So perhaps they could own either Presburg or Ostmarchen beside Moravia at the start as well. capitol: Brunn is Brno in Czech/Moravian but I think the older and more proper capitol is Olomouc. religion: the Moravian Empire was thus the first christianized west-slavic state, christian since early 9th century. But in 751 of course pagan culture: moravian is fine monarchs: the Moravian Empire has thus a list of 5 monarchs between ~800 and ~900. Can post them later if you wish. 7: Pannonian Slavs (probably the same as Slovaks) should own Carpathia and probably nothing else (I have no idea what Waag Bassiners is meant to represent but whatever they are they should not be there). They are mostly known for the fact that they were defeated in ~820 by Moravians, their only known monarch is also from that time. capitol: Nitra religion: pagan, Dunno when these mountain Slovaks were christianized, possibly not till the eu2 times ;) culture: slovak or pannonian-slavic dp/graphics: no idea monarchs: 1 known around 820, forgot his name for now but every source on Moravia will give you that name as well. 8: Karintians - I have no info on these slavs at all so I'd say: leave it as it is ;) 9: Pommeranians or Wolinians - are fine in hinterpommern but at least the German name is quite 'wrong' for them as yet. The name Pommeranians by itself is unknown till ~1000, earlier sources write only about 2 tribes here - Wolinians (on the mouth of Oder, together with island Wolin) and Pyritzanians (somewhat to the east of Wolinians). Wolinians are more famous later though as a powerful pagan slavic state in Pommern which survives as such till late 11th century even. Whatever name you choose thus, Pommeranians as I represent them here will be mostly based on Wolinians (the 'other' Pommeranians start to 'exist' in history in 1135 only with their first known duke so...) capitol: Wolin (rather modern slavic name) or the classic Wineta (known already to Romans iirc and called so by German chronichers). Wineta was a great and important trading city since 9th century, a base for northern trade with Normans (who called the city Jomsborg). From all the capitols for Slavs it should be probably the biggest. religion: pagan culture: wolinian or pommeranian is fine graphics: griffin is the sign of the Griffin-dynasty of Pommern which ruled thus only since ~ 1135 (as known). The Wolin-sign is hard to explain but I'll try - on left half 2 half-moons facing eachother vertically (forming thus an open circle). On the right half a partial 'star' of lines facing north, south, NE, east and SE. No idea on colours (derived from early coins of Wolin) dp: somewhat naval, very free-trade minded, decentralized, offensive monarchs: no data found (yet, have not really looked for them and here medieval German chronicles I used for previous tribes are of not much help) ~As much on the 'easy' west Slavic tribes. The other tribes in modern Poland have more controversies and uncertain info, and also many possibilities based on what you wish, something I need more time to explain so I'll drop it now. Only in short: the 'optimal' setup imo would be: Kashubians in Danzig, Prussians in Prussia, Polans in Poznan and Kustrin, Wisland in Krakow and Wielkopolska (or Krakow and Podlasia) and Ledzians in either Wielkopolska or Podlasia. Croatians, black or white are thus a controversy here which I believe should not exist (as state) by the time of this scenario (at most the Croatians in Ruthenia can, but they cannot be known as White Croatians, as that was the name of the southern Croatians thus - in Balkan, northern Croatians were the Black Croatians and their tribe is only semi-known as the Libice-principality which would occupy a part of the Bohemia-province and so it not placeable. Many sources see the Libice-state as Czech btw which complicates it). For Polans I can give you rulers including the oral/legendary one's since 750. Hypotheticall in combination with Wislans. But on this more later. |
More data then on 'Polish' states:
1. Slesians/Silesians/Silingers - I sort of forgot to mention these in previous post, would inhabit obviously Silesia. The name is a small controverse - Germans atlasses give the name Silingers, which is somewhat incorrect. The name Silingers is derived from Silingen which was GErmanic tribe that inhabited these territories till ~2nd cent. Apparently Germans later called the new inhabitants with the same name (a peculiarity common for many SLavic tribes, that causes many problems and controverses on Slavic history itself). Basically Silesia was inhabited by 3 tribes - Slesians (or Slezians), Diadusans and Opolans. Slesians are as such best known as they gave the name to Silesia. But anno 750 it is tough to say which one was the most powerful. capitol: No real info here but the oldest settlement in Silesia would be Sleza, a former stone-min town near Wroclaw/Breslau. The problem is that it was possibly deserted since the end of Roman times. The next known settlement in Silesia is Wroclaw, but that was founded already in early Polish times around ~1000. religion: pagan, these tribes remained all pagan till their conquest by the Poles. culture: Silesian or anything alike seems most probable. graphics: no idea, but any eagle is wrong as these were the arms of the Polish Piast-dynasty. monarchs: unknown (you will see this word more often now I'm affraid ;)) 2. Wislans - first mentionned by the also first written source on modern SLavs (the such called 'Bavarian Geograph', ~800-850). They were a strong state based around Krakow (first slavic settlement since ~650) and on upper Wisla. Both the Geographer as writers of the life of St. Methodus refer to Wislans as the most powerful slavic state in that region, with a strong, pagan king that went on 'crusades' against christian missionarisses. The Wislan power was apparently broken by Moravian invasion in 870 which caused also a great upheaval and many political changes in Polish lands from that date on (this starts thus many other controversies and hypotheses. Beside that the Wislans were probably the state that Byzantines referred wrongly to as Chrobatia, the 'Croat state'. But there is besides that no other info that there were any Croatian states in northern slavic realms). They should own Krakow (capitol), and either Podlasia or Wielkopolska (depending on which other tribes you want to place here) capitol: Krakow culture: Wislan (if you chose to use only one by lacking culture-tags, Polish culture then all Polans, Masovians, Ledzians, Silesians and Wislans should get it - Kashubians thus not. But generally that would be unrealistic) religion: pagan graphics: no idea dp: tradelike, centralized, probably defensive monarchs: A few legendary monarchs at Krakow are mentionned by later chronicles, A hypothesis is that the legendary (or as you wish 'made up') Polish rulers before 870 might have been the actual Wislan rulers. For certain no Wislan ruler is known though. I will provide you later with some more info on Polish hypothetical/legendary monarchs. 3. Ledzians/Lendians? - A tribe known basically only by name, the last tribe mentionned for Poland by the Bavarian Geographe, they inhabited the territories on middle-Wisla, so you could place them as easily in Masovia, Wielkopolska or Podlasia, depending on preference. Basically nothing else is known than that sometime between 950-960 they were conquered by Polans. 4. Goplans - this tribe is mentionned as well by the Bavarian Geographer but they would be sort of hard to place on the map. Also no later source does speak of them. They inhabited the lands of Kujawia, which would be between Danzig, hinterpommern, Poznan and Wielkopolska. They might have been the predecessors of tribes like Kashubians or Polans, none of which is mentionned by the Bavarian Geographer though. But other than this I have no info on them. 5. Polans - the proto-Poles, which have as biggest problems that no early source even mentions them (although no tribe in the Wielkopolska-Poznan area is mentionned that early either). Apparently the Polans became out of nothing around 850, the most powerful Polish state which defeated all the other tribal states here in only a 100 years. Various historians theoritize that Polan power rose after the Wislan defeat by Moravians in 870 (which was after the chronicle of the Bavarian geographe was written) which is also around the time that the later Piast dynasty came to power in Poland by defeating the previous dynasty (which thus hypothetically could have been either a Wislan tributary or the Wislan monarchy itself). The Polan base would be in Poznan, rather not yet in Wielkopolska, and possibly in Kustrin as well (some historians identify the Polans with Lebusans which might have had in Kustrin region their base) capitol: The oldest certain capitol (=residence) of Polan dukes was Ostrow Lednicki (an island near Gniezno, today mostly one big excavation), which dates as early as 6th century. Possibly earlier capitol was the somewhat northern placed town of Kruszwica, which was a known tradeplace and saltmine since 5th century. With kruszwica there are some legends, apparently it might have been the (northern) residence of Popiel, the legendary last duke of the pre-Piast dynasty. The later capitols are: Gniezno (since ~970) and Krakow (since ~1039) culture: Polan/Polish religion: pagan till the memorable year of 966 graphics: Polish one's are obvious, the eagle by itself is tied to poland by the Piast dynasty so it can be used earlier as well. dp: offensive, centralized monarchs: various lists are possible here thus, the first certain ruler was Mieszko I, the first assumed almost-certain ruler was Siemowit (since ~870-80). More data later. 6. Kashubians - they are not mentionned in early sources but are as such peculiar as they differ till today notably by their language. The fact is that they were a relatively isolated tribe till ~ 1000. They would be based in Danzig. capitol: not sure but Danzig/Gdansk would be too late. Possibly Tczew, have to research it a bit more though. culture: Kashubian religion: pagan graphics: here you can perhaps use that nice Kashubian griffin like the one in my avatar ;) dp: no idea monarchs: no info till ~1200's 7. Mazovians - they appear on German maps, probably more due to lack of alternatives than any certain information. I have no other info than that sometime before 950 the lands known as Masovia fell to Polans. All the towns here are founded also only after 950 (Plock, Wloclawek, NOT Warsaw) 8. Lebusans - tribe name derived from the town of Lebus on the Oder (near Frankfurt a/d Oder), which in 10th century was an important slavic settlement. it is unclear if that tribe really existed (might have been the same as the later Polans). The first certain sources on Lebus place that town in ownership of Lusitian tribes. Of Lebusans still existed they would be inhabiting the other side of the Oder, somewhere in Kustrin province thus. But no other info is known on them. The Kustrin-area was also basically uninhabited till the Polans entered it in the 10th century. ~On this my knowledge of Polish tribes ends, as end the factual sources. Anything more to the east is hypothetical and based thus on German atlasses, in turn based on very uncertain information (but depending on these it looks fine in the game). The probable setup-tweaks could be: Prussians should own only Prussia (Borussia is the latin name of Prussian kingdom, used since ~1700), with capitol at Truso (an important tradecity 900-1000), Masovia could be occupied by Jatvingians, a baltic tribe familiar to Prussians. On northern Balts I would suggest to use the same distinction as we did in MES - Memel to Samogithians, Kurland to Kurs, Livland (or Polotsk) to Semigalians (eventually Livland could be part of Livonians if Semigalians get Polotsk), Lithuania to Lithuanians, and eventually Lettigalians in Belarus (they did not live that much to the east though) |
Royal data:
I. Obodrittes The known list is: 1. Nako (Germ. Nakon), ~940-~966 2. Mstivoj (aka Mistiwoi, Mistui, Mistav and Billug), ~966-~990-999? 3. Mstislav (aka Mistislaw, Miztislavus), ~995-~1018/1022 note: some sources state that he became christian 4. Udo (aka Pribigniew, Uto, Uto-Pribigniew), ~1018/22-~1029/1030 note: pagan, leader of a pagan reaction 5. Gotschalk (no info on proper slavic spelling), ~1030-7.VI.1066 note: some sources claim that he only gained power in 1043. Christian ruler, also a strong and expansive one. Founded many churches and supported bishopries. He also apparently founded Lubeck. Killed during the great pagan reaction-uprising in 1066. 6. Budiwoj (aka Butue), son of Gotschalk, christian, killed in 1071 or 1073. Was in fact in exile after the pagan reaction. Defeated and executed by the pagan ruler Krut. 7. Krut, leader of pagans, ruled in fact since 1066 (officially 1073/75 after death of Budiwoj), till 1093. A very strong, pagan ruler. Invaded and destroyed various Saxon principalities and for a change managed to get the Saxons from borderlands to pay him tribute. Destroyed Hamburg and conquered as such Holstein, defeated many times in the field the german imperial armies. Succeded by a son of Gotschalk, Henrik, who managed to overthrow him between 1090-93. 8. Henryk (Germ. Heinrich), 1093-22.III.1127, christian ruler, strong conqueror, defeated and subdued Weletians and some other unplaceable slavic ribes. Enhanced trade and economy and christianization. 9. Kanut 1127-1128, killed by brother Swantepolk 10. Swantepolk, shortly during 1128, defeated and murdered by Germans 11. Knut Laward - ruler of Mecklemburg, earlier of Slezwig, usurped the crown of that country, murdered in 7.I.1131 12. Niklot - prince of Mecklemburg, from obodritte dynasty (a side-branch, unknown exact familiarity with the earlier Obodrittes) ruled since 1131 till 1160. Some more info on Obodrittes (in German): http://www.genealogie-mittelalter.de...cklenburg.html II. Hevelians The known list: 1. Baklabik ~900-~930 2. Tegomir (Germ. Tugumir) ~930-after 940 3. Dobromir after 940-between 970/980 4. Pribislav till after 992 (died 28.XII.993 but was probably already deposed at that time) 5. Rule of a Brandenburgian ruler, Kizo between 992-995 6. Bolelut since ~995 till ? Thereafter no information. Genealogie Mittelalter mentions two late 11th cnet. rulers. See here: http://www.genealogie-mittelalter.de..._fuersten.html III. Bohemian legendary rulers here is the list of legendary rulers with dates. Keep in mind that these dates are probably made up by late medieval chronichers. 1. (Praotec) Cech (similar to Lech and Rus legend) 2. Krok (ruler at Vysehrad, descendant of Samo? son or grandson?) reign: 30 years (legendary) legend? http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/...ur/eu-ggkn.htm 3. Libuse (daughter of Krok), married to: 4. Premysl Orac (who started the Premyslide dynasty and moved the capitol to Praha) 8th century? note: from unchecked genealogy site: died 745 5. Nezamysl (see above) 745-25.V.783 6. Mnata (see above) 783-804 7. Vojen (see above) 804-820 8. Unislav (sa) 820-833 9. Kresomysl (sa) 833-851 10. Neklan (sa) 851-873 11. Hostivit (sa, died in 870, discrepancy in dating as he was a king according to legend) 12. Borivoj I ~869/70-894 (first confirmed ruler) 13. Spytihnev I 894-~905 (first christian ruler of Bohemia?) IV: Polish rulers The confirmed rulers since 963 (with some corrected data, names and nickanems in Polish and English) I provide also my suggestions for stats. Dukes: 1. Mieszko I (aka Mieszko Dagone, Mieszko 'the Blind') ~960-25.V.992 DIP:7 ADM:7-8 MIL:7 2. Boleslaw I 'Chrobry' ('the Brave' or 'the Bold'; aka 'the Great' or 'the Glorious' by medieval chronichers) 992-april or june 1025 DIP:7-8 ADM:6 MIL:8 note: crowned king in 1024/1025 3. Mieszko II (aka Mieszko Lambert) 1025-1031 and then 1032-10.V.1034 DIP:3-4 ADM: 5-6 MIL: 3-4 note: king 1025-1031 4. Interregnum (or Bezprym) 1031-1032 (sort of general anarchy) 5. Kazimierz I 'Odnowiciel' ('the Restorer', also known as 'the Monk') formally 1034-28.XI.1058 but shortly after 1034 he left Poland for Germany and returned only in 1039 DIP: 4-5 ADM: 6-7 MIL: 5 6. Interregnum 1034-1039, time of pagan reaction and revolts of petty rulers (most known is Mieclaw, in Masovia 1032-1040) 7. Boleslaw II 'Smialy' or 'Szczodry' ('the Bold/Reckless' or 'Generous'), 1058-11.IV.1079 (exiled, died 1081) DIP: 4-5 ADM: 5-6 MIL: 8 note: king since 1076 8. Wladyslaw I (aka Wladyslaw Herman, or Wladyslaw 'the Pious'), 1079-4.VI.1102 DIP: 4 ADM: 4-5 MIL: 4-5 9. Boleslaw III 'Krzywousty' ('the Wrymouthed'), 1102-28.X.1138 DIP: 6-7 ADM: 5-6 MIL: 7-8 Note: Boleslaw ruled between 1102-1107 together with his half-brother Zbigniew. However, Boleslaw was the 'senior' (even if he was younger) and the formal ruler at Krakow since 1102. Zbigniew controlled only Wielkopolska and part of Silesia. Zbigniew could never become legitimate ruler as he was not a legitime son of Wladyslaw (he was son of a concubine). Zbigniew was exiled in 1107, and murdered in 1112 10. Wladyslaw II 'Wygnaniec' (the Exile), 1138-1146 (exiled, died in 1159 or 1163) DIP: 4 ADM: 3 MIL: 2 11. Boleslaw IV 'Kedzierzawy' ('the Curled') 1146-1173 DIP: 6 ADM: 4 MIL: 3 the 'unconfirmed but likely' dukes from oral tradition: 1. Siemowit (first duke of the Piast dynasty) ~870/80-~900 2. Lestek ~900-~930/40 3. Siemomysl ~930/40-~960 the 'legendary/made up' earlier dukes 1. Lech (legendary 'founder' of Poland, one of the brothers Lech, Czech and Rus). 2. Krak (aka Krakus or Grakh, legendary founder of Krakow, possibly ruler of Wislans). Legends date him on ~700. An excavation in Krakow which is supposedly his grave-hill is dated on ~650 though. 3. Wanda (legendary daughter of Krak, offered herself to Gods after an amount of years in rule. Apparently from her name the old name of Wisla-river - Wandal is derived, as is the old name of Slavs/proto-Poles - Wandals) 4. Lestek I (apparently elected duke/king after a period of anarchy) 5. Lestek II (another elected ruler after a new period of anarchy. He started supposedly a dynasty of 'Lestkowice' which ruled over 4 generations) 6. Lestek III (son of Lestek II) 7. Popiel I (aka Papiel I, or Popiel 'the Elder') 8. Popiel II (aka Papiel II, or Popiel 'the Younger'. This Popiel was thus according to oral tradition exiled and replaced by Siemowit, which would be around 870-880.) All these previous rulers might have been thus, if the hypothesis of Wislan aothority over most of Poland in 9th century is accepted, actually rulers of Wislans in Krakow. As such the possible earlier Polan rulers were the legendary father and grandfather of Siemowit: Piast and Choscisko (but only early modern chronichers made Piast actually a ruler). The post 16th century chronichers enchance that medieval list as follows (text literally copied from a German site as I doj't have the original list, as you might see some names are wrongly spelled here) As mentionned before these dates are all basically made up (and some are thus, due to research and data I provided earlier already certain to be simply wrong): - Lechus I. (Lech) ab 550 - Wisszymirus (Wyzimir, Wizimierz) aus dem Stamm des Lechus sowie weitere namentlich unbekannte Lechiaden und am Ende 12 Woijewoden (Pfalzgrafen) bis 700 - Cracus (Krakus) 700-728 - Lechus II. 728-730 - Wanda (Venda) 730-740 - 12 Woijewoden (Pfalzgrafen) 740-750 - Lescus I. (auch Przemyslaw) 750-784 - Lescus 11. 784-800 - Lescus III. 800-815 - Popelus I. (Popiel Senior) 815-830 - Popelus II. (Popiel Junior) 830-842 - Piastus (Piast) 842-861 - Zemowit (Siemovitus) 862-892 - Lescus IV. 892-913/auch 921 Ende der Phantomkönige - Vater (Ziemomisius/Siemomysl?) von Miezko I. ???-963 - - Miezko I. (Mesco) Erster unstrittiger Herzog 963-999 V: Dukes of Moravia I refer you to info from that German site http://www.genealogie-mittelalter.de...n_reiches.html |
strewth!!!
you've been busy! Will deseminate the reems of information you have provided and get them implemented. woooooweeee. Have already implemented the information you have given from your first post and have provided as an add-on download. you didn't major in slavic history did you??? :o :p this will keep me busy, hehe thanks yours (keep it coming, please, much appreciated) Ayeshteni |
I study officially modern history but eastern european medieval history is a hobby of mine so... ;) (sort of explain why I ever started to work on the MES scenario as well) I was actually reading through translations of the German chronicles of Helmond and Thietmar to find what they had to say on medieval Poland when I saw that you revived this project, so I took some notes ;)
And well, that was most of the info I had. I will see if I can find more underway - perhaps on military leaders other than kings (most medieval rulers if not totally cripple did of course lead their armies themselves ;)) I can provide something (especially on Poland). Some small addition I have already - uncertain as yet, from Regnal Chronologies site (hostkingdom) a list of earlier rulers for Obodrittes. I cannot find them in my own sources and the German chonicles don't mention them so as yet it is a mystery where he gets them from (as his later list has an amount of mistakes it isn't helping the case either)... but I'll post it anyway - better uncertain rulers than no rulers at all I guess... ;) # Vyshan......................................... ? -795 # Godlav.........................................795-803 with... # Drazhko........................................795-809 and... # Slavomir.......................................795-819 # Sedrag.........................................819-839 # Gostomysl......................................839-844 # Dobromysl......................................844-862 hereafter he describes a period of Saxon controle (not mentionned by my German sources) and then goes over on the list I provided in earlier post. Finally - your site doesn't seem to work... :confused: |
Rulers of Polans/Poland
May I suggest that the list of rulers of the Polans tribe begins with (or includes) Popiel II. Then we could include a short event series for his marriage to a saxon princess, perhps a (failed) christianisation attempt, the mice incident, and the coup d'etat by Piast (with the return to paganism).
The stats for Popiel II, Mieszko I, and Boleslaw I should be modified by various events. How is the christianisation of the slavs handled? am I missing something, or there are no events? We should definitely write series of events for: - The expansion of Moravia (the abovementioned Great Moravian State) - The expansion of Bohemia (now, this one is surely historical, isn't it?) - The formation of Russia (Kiev) - The expansion of Polans - formation of Poland - various stages - similar to the formation of Spain from Castille perhaps? - The strife of the western slavs for survival (I'd give them a chance to christianise and "modernise", thus enhancing their chances vs Germans and Poles, as an unhistorical event choice). Disclaimer: I know that many of my proposlas, including the Popiel story, have little to do with the official history. But it would be fun to include them, otherwise playing as Polans from 750 A.D. is _very_ boring. There is also no evidence that it did not happen... So far for now... Kasperus, pls let me know if you want a cooperation on these subjects, which I understand ae your field. |
DP Sliders for the Slavs
Serfdom:
As I understand, introducing christianity to the Eastern Europe meant also introducing western society standards, such as tithe and serfdom. One of the reasons of English crusades against Ireland was that the Irish peasants wee basically free and that the church structure was not strict and stiff (bishophrics connected to people but not to the land areas). Thus, Irish christianity was not regarded as christainity... Thus every country wanting to christainise had to adopt also this social order. Source: Robert Bartlett "The Making of Europe". I remember to have read somewhere that the rulers of Eastern Europe had to resort to very harsh methods to reduce the peasants into full serfdom. On the other hand, when they were inviting German settlers, they offered them quite a freedom, but this is another story. So, I suggest that we put the serfdom slider in the middle, and move it way to the right in christianisation events. Aristocracy: I suggest that we put it in the middle. I cannot imagine huge real estates in Poland as of 751... But also no burgeoisie. Moved to the right by christianisation. Innovativeness: I suggest it quite back, 1 or 2. These societies remained quite closed for the European developments unless a change was forced upon them. Christianisation (and modernisation) came as an order from the ruling prince (which can be handled by events), and other than that they kept old habits as long as they could. |
@Browning
Feel free to propose and include whatever you wish, I don't consider myself as 'responsible' for anything - I made only (somewhat lengthy) suggestions based on a 'database' that I'm making on medieval Slavs and Balts (currently a free time project of mine ;)) and what I add to it over time that might be useful for this scenario (or any other scenario for that matter), I will post here. I have the MES-project to work on and I cannot fully commit myself to 2 projects so I limit myself to advising role only. Re Popiel: Ayeshteni included the post-Dlugosz ('fantasy') list of rulers for Polans in 1.2 patch that I proposed earlier in this thread, so they have now rulers from 750, that indeed includes Popiel II as ruler for Polans (if it was up to me he would rather rule Wislans, together with all the Lestkowice-dynasty and the Polan line would start with Siemowit or at most with Choscisko and Popiel, but I leave the choice to Ayeshteni here ;)). And so there should be indeed events but again, I leave the inclusion of such to others (Ayeshteni or other fanatics ;)) I'm not very entusiastic about event-scripting myself, which I'm not very efficient at, might at most propose a few as well... @Ayeshteni & others interested... Later this afternoon I have some more interesting data, especially on Polabian Slavic rulers and a bit on Karintians. And a few suggestions for 'fixes' on the previous inclusions. |
I will write the events for Popiel II and the mice stories, then...
Reserving the 100101 - 100151 for Polans (POL), Ayeshteni? |
ok, in short some more data and fixes:
I. Obodrittes the regnal chrono's monarchlist is historical, it represents the leaders of Obodrite confederacy. Apparenlty till mid 9th century at least most Slavs formed such confederacies ('greater tribes'), which elected themselves a 'grand prince', sometimes his rule was dynastical. This fell in disuse throughout the 9th century. So these dukes of Obodrites are the grand princes, while the list starting with Nako is the actual dynasty ruling the 'proper' Obodrites after the confederacy had fallen. This is the list of data that I can confirm from my own sources. I provide the names in slavic spelling (the spelling here is phonetic English, not wrong of course) but w/o the special signs on letters 1. Wilcano (or Wican), murdered in 795 2. Drozko, ruled from c.a.795 till either 798 or 806 (sources discrepancy), then in exile till 808 or 809 and then rules again for a short time till (presumably) his death in 809 or 810 3. Godelaib (Godlav might be here the even better name though), replaced Drozko in either 798 or 806 and ruled till his death in 808 4. Cedrog, son of Drozko, ruled since c.a. 809 till 817 and then again since 819 till 826 or later 5. Slavomir, brother of Cedrog, rose up against him and was made prince of Obodrites by the German king in 817, but died (?) shortly in 819 6. Gostomysl, unknown when he became duke ( no confimation on the 839 date from regnal), died in 844. 7. an unknown ruler, rather not Dobromysl though. Possibly time of tribal council only. 8. Dobromysl, according to my sources he gets actually elected in 862 rather than he dies. He is the last known grand prince of obodrittes and his deathdate is unknown. II. Weleti Also the Weleti had for some time grand princes. The following are known: 1. Drogowit (genealogie mittelalter mentions him in the list of Hevelian dukes, but also as Weleti duke), mentionned only in 789 2. Liub, ruled between Drogowit and Milogost ;) 3. Milogost, died c.a. 823 4. Calodrog, ruled since 823 and probably still around 840 and later. After ~840 till ~950 there is apparently no contact between Germans and Weleti and it is not known how many grand dukes ruled after Calodrog. In ~950 at least the Weleti had no grand dukes anymore for some time. III. Hevelians capitol is now Berlin, should be Brenna though... Berlin did not exist yet. Some later Havelian dukes are provided by a Polish article I found... these guys were already somewhat Germanized and were apparently christian... 1. Meinfred, died 1127 2. Pribislav-Henrik (sp uncertain, Przybyslaw-Henryk in Polish), probably since 1127, died 1150 as the last Havelian duke. Although his possible successor was Jaksa z Kopanicy, his nephew, who claimed that principality after 1150 but was after 1153 kicked out by Albrecht the Bear and went to Poland thereafter. But that's already outside this scenario ;). IV. Chudzice or Sorbians Also the (western) Sorbians had a confederacy structure for some time, although it was much looser than with Obodrittes and Weleti. Although the following rules do not fit greatly with Chudzice as such, they could be of course used (you might perhaps after all rename the Chudzice back to Sorbians) Only 1 grand prince within the scenario-period is known: 1. Miliduch, died 806 After his rule the confederacy declined and at most consisted of a few western tribes only. However, 2 more dukes of such are known: 2. Teglo, mentionned only in 826, and 3. Cescibor, mentionned in 856 and then in 858 (his deathdate) The might have had a consecutive rule but I cannot prove that with resources I have. Possibly in between 2 and 3 you might put another powerful Sorbian duke, of the Kolendycan tribe, Ciemysl, who died in 836 (the 2 and 3 could be after all also Kolendycan). After 858 I have as yet (except for the Kuchawica-guy mentionned before) no other data on (west) Sorbian dukes V. Milchans here only suggestion on flag, namely one of the current Lusitian flags, of either nether-lusitia: http://home.student.uva.nl/kacper.va...lne_luzyce.gif or upper-lusitia http://home.student.uva.nl/kacper.va...orneluzyce.gif WHichever you choose, they are better than Mayan :rofl: VI. Polish and other towns the followung could be best renamed: 1. Lublin (in Podlasia) didn't exist yet, perhaps Wislica would be much better, though none is fantastic here I know... 2. Gniezno (in WIelkopolska) did possibly even exist (though part of archeologists disagree) but it was not in the land of the Ledzians. Better solutions might be either Leczyca (though that town isn't probablky that old either) or Kalisz (assuming that it still existed by then and that the note that Kalisz = the Roman tradepost Calisia is true ;)) 3. Vilnius (in Lithuania) didn't exist either. I'm not sure right now which was the oldest Lithuanian capitol but at least Trakai was already much older than Vilnius. 4. Also Kustrin should be renamed byt I have found yet no historical alternative... Polish name is Kostrzyn though, always better than the German version imo ;). VII. Karintians and/or Slovenes (?) Just small scraps of data here, probably more confusing that helping...: a. Slovenes (or some Styrian tribe perhaps?) have apparently in 777 3 dukes mentionned (if they ruled together or consecutively the source doesn't make clear) - Taliup, Sparuna and Fisso. Apparently at that date they were forced to pay tribute (to Germans or Fraks or whatever) b. Karantanians, who had capital at Krnski Grad (near todays Klagenfurth) and are one time mentionned as Slovenes and other time as Karantanians (so I'm somewhat confused) have 1 ruler mentionned (actually 2, but the first is dead before 751): 1. Gorazd, mentionned in 751 as ruler, when he is also christianized (!) Now it is thus very possible that both groups of rulers are assigned to one and the same country. Unfortunately the Karintian slavs remain a mystery to me for now... |
Popiel and the mice
Here are my suggestions for the "Duke Popiel and the mice" event series for Polans (POL). I would ask everybody interested to comment on them.
Attention! For the series to work as intended, I need that the POL monarch 1202 (Piastus) be dormant from the beginning (he will be woken up by the historical event choices). Code:
EDIT: I will be playtesting this tomorrow. |
Perhaps a friendly moderator could rename this thread to "AJFIFU: Western Slavs" to achieve a consistency with other AJFIFU threads?
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@Browning
I Like the events ;) Will include and will alter the dormant status of Popiel as you suggest. yours Ayeshteni |
Dormant status of Piastus, please!
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yours Ayeshteni |
@Ayeshteni
OK I made up my mind about the Bulgarian Empire. Let me give you my thoughts on the geography. Bulgaria should receive the province of Bulgaria and have their capital there. Remove shields from Serbia, Kosovo, Albania and Bosnia and add shields for Banat, Transylvania and Maros. The Avars who own those latter provinces were a constant pain in the neck and were destroyed and partly incorporated by the great Bulgar khan Krum about 805, so shields make sense for me (This phase in Bulgar history should be handled through events I think). What do you also think of giving them a shield on Thrace, to make constant warfare between the Romans and Bulgars certain? They were happily besieging Constantinople every decade. ;) Serbia should then receive the province of Albania. Errr ok, actually I wanted to make some leaders like Krum and Symeon for Bulgaria but I figured out they are already in. Finally I'm fine with "Bulgarian" but other ethnics like "Serbian", "Croatian" and "Bosnian" should really be changed to something like "Southern Slavic" or so. The difference between those became significant only much later. |
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yours Ayeshteni |
I second the changes proposed here.
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I bit of an update, based on some more sources I got my hand on lately. Some things I post might confuse the situation or even exclude itself, so just choose whether you take something or not ;)
1. Obodrittes (Abodrittes) Once more a list of monarchs, now a final update based on the probably best available source on western slavs there is - a work of Polish historians Wachowski and Labuda on this matter. I don't think much more info that is not there can be found anywhere else... The list: -I would not start with tribal chiefs but some 'grand duke/dukes' filler till c.a. 775, Obodrittes had a system of strong grand duke at that time (I will get back to slavic systems when discussing Weleti) -Vyshan/Wilchan is ok -the mess after 795 shoud be: Drazhko/Drozko 795-808, Godelaib 808-809, Drazhko again 809-810, Slavomir 810-819 -Sedrag/Chedrog is ok, idem Gostomysl -Dobromysl should live longer though, he is only mentionned first in 862. He was forced to submit to German will that year but he remained in rule for unknown time. -the gap should be filled with another generic 'grand duke' rather than 'interregnum' - Obodrittes were still governed by grand princes till 10th century, we only don't know their names... -next known duke is Stoigniev who died in 929. His brother Nako ruled after him (probably for some time together with him already, or they had the Obodritte lands divided between them for some time), so he should be ruler since 929 and not 940, enddate is ok -Further Mstivoi and Mstislav are ok -according to Wachowski the list provided by that German site post Mstislav I used earlier forgets some rulers. A fuller list: -Uto-Pribigniev, 1018 till c.a. 1028 -Gotschalk c.a. 1028-c.a. 1029 (exiled) -Racibor c.a. 1029-c.a. 1040 -unknown sons of Racibor rule for a short period after Racibors death till 1043 -Gotschalk again 1043-1st june 1066 From 1066 Obodrittia is in pagan uprising (would be an idea for event) and thereafter in continous strive between 3 dynasties for throne - Krutians, Gotschalkovic and (later) Niklotides. The line would look like this (partially you have it already): -Blus, short period in 1066-1067 -Budiwoj, son of Gotschalk, exiled during 1067, remains in rule of small part of the realm till his death 1071 -Krut, son of Gryn (probably a local prince) elected pagan grand duke in 1067, till 1093 -Henryk Gotschalkovic, rules since c.a. 1090 from Lubeck, after 1093 all Obodrittes (your deathdate is correct) -Kanut and Swantepolk are ok. -Pribislav, son of Budiwoj rules since 1128 till 1130/1131 in a part of the realms (another part is occupied by Kanute Laward, but formally he was not a slavic duke of course) -Niklot rules from 1130/1131 till 1160 You might also consider implementing an amount of events, especially one's which handle christianization of rulers (or return to paganism) and change accordingly religion, the great pagan revolt of 1066 should be an event I guess, so the 'civil war' of 808-809. Krut's invasion and plundering of northern Saxonia of 1070's is another good event. Formation of bishopry of Starigard in 968 and then its (temporary) destruction in 983. And finally the division fo Obodrittia and Wagria in 1018 and Danish conquests in Obodrittia of Kanut Laward around 1128. Technically you could consider making Wagria independant (revolter), based in Holstein (capitol Starigard is ok). There were periods in which Wagria was independant, notably 1018-1030's and after 1120's, while during other periods it was usually part or vassal of Obodrittes. Known dukes are: -Sielibor, mentionned during 960's, around 970 forced in exile by his son whoes name is undocumented -Sederyk rules Wagrians since 1018 till around 1025. Then his sons (or brothers) Uniedrog and Gniewos rule together till around 1030 when all lands fall to Racibor of Obodrittes. -Budiwoj, exiled from Obodrittia in 1067 remains in control of Wagria till his death of 1071. -In 1130's Wagria has dukes again, 2 contesting lines, some of the dukes would also rule all Obodrittia in that period. Known are: Pribislav, ruling since 1130/31 (probably after Niklot took over Obodrittia proper). Around 1140 mentionned is Racek, a descendant of Krut who replaced Pribislav before 1140. Finally in 1149 mentionned is Rochel, another descendant of Krut, probably son of Racek. The last 2 dukes were pagan. 2. Weleti here I only object the generic monarch. Basically slavs had 3 possible bodies of government, sometimes combined, sometimes only one of the 3 possible being fully in charge: Grand duke, Elders council and Tribal (popular) council (called 'wiec' and including all inhabitants of a tribe/principality). For Obodrittes mentionned before for most period the standard was a quite strong Grand Duke and somewhat weaker, though existing Tribal council. Weleti had also in the beginning Grand dukes, and an even stronger Tribal council. Till late 800's the GRand Dukes were howeevr existing in power, while thereafter (for unknown reasons, and also during unknown period) the function of duke was abolished at all and all power went to the Tribal council. Weleti had never a strong Tribal Elder council though, that form of government was more popular by the Polish and especially Pommeranian Slavs. So Weleti should start with a generic 'Grand duke' till Drogowit, and after Calodrog the proper government can remain 'Grand duke' for some time but already before 900 it has to be replaced by 'Tribal Council' - Weleti had eventually the most republican form of government among all Western Slavs. Btw, after 1057 there is an amount of civil wars within the Weleti confederation, would be a good idea for some nice (or rather not nice) events for them... 3. Sorbians Also for Sorbians the 'tribal elders' monarch is wrong, in 8th century also Sorbians had Grand dukes. The ruling dukes later can stay... You might consider an event 'destruction of the Glomacze tribe' in 928 when the German sacked their capitol Gana and forced the glomacze (which were basically the most powerful Sorbian tribe, controlling over a half of their territories) into vassalship to Germany. Similarily in 930 the Milchans were forced into tributary status, although they released themselves of it shortly thereafter. 4. Carantenians, Slovenes etc. A bit more info here, on regard to the earlier rulers and loaction: First of all the book of Wachowski mentions as most important state here the Chorutanian state (which I assume to be the slavic term for Carantanians). The added map localizes them on upper Sava and Drava, say in current Slovenia and north Croatia, therefor actually rather to south-east of Slovenes and not west of them. As such the ownership of lands should be reverted between the two (or maybe simply Slovens should only get Steiermark and the other provs should go to Chorutanians/Carantanians). It is possible that Carantanians means though a smaller tributary state in Asutria which were also mentionned (these were tributary to Chorutanians, and later to Germans). otoh Choritanians could also get lands (or cb's) on IStria and Croatia, the lands they partially owned (Croatians are placed on that map south of the Sava river, so rather in current Bosnia and Dalmatia) On rulers the following can be told: Chorutanians had as rulers: -Boruta, ruled around 745 till late 750's -Kakatius (his latin name, slavic name is not identified), a son of Boruta, christianized, ruled for 3 years around 760 -Chotimir (2nd son of Boruta, christian ruler), ruled since 760's till around 770. -In 772 country is struck by pagan reaction and expelling of bishops, current duke is killed (it is unknown if that was Chotimir or a successor) -then Germans (rather Bavarians) restore rest and put christian Walluk on throne and he rules since 772 till 780's -last known duke is Odilon, mentionned in 789 who led another uprising against Germans (so he was probably pagan). I have no further info on Chorutians but their state decreased in importance around 800. On Slovenes I have not much new to add, except that Taliup, Sparuna and Fisso were local zupans (local princes) in region of eastern and southern Austria, and were tributory to Chorutanians. At least Fisso is well identified as zupan of a small state on the Enus river in central Austria, who ruled around 777. Finally I have 4 names of slavic dukes ruling smaller principalities in 2nd half of 8th century on the territory of Bavaria, they are probably of no use but I will mention them anyway: Pribislav, Zenikas, Stoimir, Edgar. The name of the last proves that these tribes were already Germanized by the end of 8th century. 5. Pommeranians/Wolinians The early Wolinian monarchs (if there were any) are not known. In any case the research showed that Wolinians (and other Pommeranian tribes) had usually a rule of combined Elders and Popular council. Pommerania is as such one of the few slavic territories which had a well developed tribal Elders oligarchy in rule. On specific rulers the first info comes from 10th century only. In 967 dies Wichman, an exiled German count who was at some point elected by Wolinians to lead their forces and state against Poles. He was thus not a real prince. Later Wolinians fall under Pommeranian dukes, which in turn were probably put in charge of western Pommern in 980's by Polish dukes. Their names are often not known or confusing or not accepted by all historians. The list is somewhat messy here as various dukes mentionned might have had only local rule in Pommern. -Swentopelk, possibly a son of Mieszko I of Poland, might have been put up as duke around 991/992, ruled for unknown period from unknown capitol (possibly Kolberg or Bialogard) -Dytryk, he was either a son of Swentopelk or a brother of Mieszko II, was assigned to rule Pommern in or after 1032 for unknwon period. -Siemomysl or Siemysl or Wszemysl (3 sources I have give all different names, based on different translation from latin), mentionned only by a German document of 1046 as 'duke of Pommern'. He is the first 'certain' ruler of Pommern, but his origins, location of his lands amd capitol are unknown. -unnamed grand duke of Pommern who rules in Kolberg (Kolobrzeg) or Bialogard and gets (probably) killed in 1107 by Polish forces. It is the first mentionning of a Grand-ducal system in Pommern. -Boleslaw III of Poland puts a nephew Swentobor on Pommeranian throne in or around 1107/1108, that guy rises up against Poles however and gets defeated in 1108 (but if he gets deposed or killed the sources do not tell) -another duke of Pommern is ruling from Bialogard and becomes vassal of Boleslaw in 1108 (also he is mentionned as grand duke, possibly a successor of the duke killed in 1107). In that time there are also 2 local dukes, vassals to the grandduke of Pommern but also tributary to Poland - Swentopelk rules in south-east Pommern (around Naklo) and Gniewomir in southern Pommern (Czarnkow, Ujscie) -Warcislaw I, first entirely histoprical duke of Pommern, possibly a descendant of the last duke of Bialogard, rules from 1120's from Kamien (a town on a few kilometres from Wolin/Wineta). Wartislaw becomes christian and rules till early 1130's. -Racibor, a son or brother of Wartislaw is first mentionned in 1136 and dies in 1156. In short the list would be thus: Swentopelk 991-?, Dytryk 1032-?, Siemomysl 1040's, unknown dukes, unnamed duke 1 till 1107, Swentobor 1107-1108, unnamed duke 2 1108-1120's, Wartislav I before 1125s-c.a. 1135, Racibor c.a. 1135-1156. it is up to you to fill it up though ;) 6. Kashubians, and dukes of East Pommern Kashubians have no known rulers till 10th century. Also I'm now in doubt about the capitol - Tczew is mentionned in some sources but other sources mention Gdansk (Danzig) as first known capitol of East-Pomemranian dukes since c.a. 950/60. Possibly Tczew was earlier capitol but now I don't dare to wed my head on it. A source I found gives a line of east-Pommeranian dukes since around 960, however I don't have the whole book and so can only guess on dates or the actual correction of this list (I have only the index actually...) the list (dukes are semi-legendary): -Wislaw before 960-around or after 980 (his name is made up by early modern historians. In sources he is only known as 'the powerful east Pommeranian duke who moved the capitol to Gdansk'. The early historians could not bear it having a famous duke without a name so they made one up...) -Siemysl (uncertain, could be identified with the west-Pommeranian duke Siemomysl) -Swietobor I -Slawina -Swentopelk I (possibly identified with Swentopelk, ruler of south-east Pommern around Naklo, vassal to west-Pomemranian duke, ruling in early 1100's) -Swietobor II (he might have ruled actually before Swentopelk, a source I have puts a deathdate of a Swentobor on 1106, but that could be also Swentobor I. Then Swentobor II ruled till the reign of Subislaw I) -Subislaw, who ruled since around 1150 is the first almost certain duke of East-Pommern/Kashubia So a list with hughe gaps unfortunately... for the gaps I can only say that most probably the government was similar to that of late west-Pommern, namely a strong duke in rule, opposed (especially early on) by Tribal Elders. In general Kashubia remains an obscure territory though. 7. Polish lands First of all I would bring into consideration a change of setup here. It is not really necessary but as I don't want to have sleepless nights for not mentionning while I think it *might* be more historical (if possibly de-balancing) I will do it anyway, do with it what you wish ;) As I think I already mentionned in earlier posts there were some more tribes mentionned by earlies sources on Poland. The most notable one that are now not included are the Goplans. Now Goplans are not easy to place as they would occupy (as I thought originally) borderlands of some 4 provinces. However, I was a bit confused as it seems about location of certain towns, which seem to be actually more to south-east then I thought (silly me). So actually Goplan lands would be on the map in northern half od Wielkopolska-province (the southern part would belong to Wiercians and eastern-most only to Lendians). As Goplans are here the best known and most powerful I would advocate to include them anyway in Wielkopolska, thereby moving Lendians to Podlasia (a more suitable location imo) and then reducing Wislans to one province only in Krakow (though they would keep cb on Podlasia). This is more historical, though would perhaps make Wislans too weak. Perhaps Krakow province could be then made richer and Wielkopolska poorer to offset it? Then further info on Goplans: capitol would be Kruszwica. Rulers are as usual for Polish tribes problematic. The only semi-legendary ruler assigned to Goplans is Donimir, ruling from late 900's till early 1000's, during these years probably already tributory/vassal of Polish dukes. As earlier dukes ruling from Kruszwica however history identified the legendary Popiel I and Popiel II. The later comes from folklore from these lands and medieval and early modern historians knew apparently of him so much that they thought he was so powerful that they made him duke of whole Poland (though retaining that he ruled in the north - Gniezno or Kruszwica, so is the legend on which Browning made that event for Poland also based in Kruszwica, which at that time was thus certainly not Polish). My private hypothesis is that in fact all the rulers of 'Poland' before Mieszko were local rulers who ruled rather next to eachother than as subsequent rulers of 'Poland'. This is proved by the fact that certain Polish dukes come from different local traditions - Piast and his successor from Polan, Popiels from Goplan, Lesteks from Lendian and Krakus and Wanda from Wislan. just a thought on the further setup of monarchs thus - of course you can do with this info what you wish ;) However thus, if you might add Goplans and use Popiels as their rulers, the possible list would be: Popiel I around 850, Popiel II till around 870's/880's (his death or exile would be placed on these dates by Polish history anyway), then sons of Popiel (assuming they were not killed but exiled as Gall Anonim, early medieval chronicher writes - only Dlugosz wants them definitely dead here. Dlugosz, famous 16th century chronicher gives them names Popiel and Lestek, probably made up and/or traditional), then probably an unknown duke and then Donimir since around 980. 7b. Lendians If you keep Lendians in Wielkopolska then capitol will have to stay Leczyca. If you put them in Podlasia then capitol should be Chodlik. I found a weird picture which is apparently based on lendian cultural or religious tradition, which some enthusiasts use as hypothetical shield of Lendians, I put it up here just for the record (don't ask what it represents...). http://home.student.uva.nl/kacper.va...vel/gryfon.gif If Lendians are moved to Podlasia, they should get a cb on Galicia (they owned for some time at least various cities there, especially Czerwien and Przemysl) Some rulers are recorded, by Greek and Russian sources (they are identified with Lendians rulers, Russian sources speak sometimes more generally of 'Poles' here but that's considered unlikely). -Przemysl-Lestek, legendary founder of Przemysl, would be ruling in 8th century. Medieval historians identified him this with Lestek I of Poland ruling from Krakow or Gniezno - probable effect of the random compilation of regional tradition into 1 history as I mentionned earlier. If his existence is true then the Lestek II and Lestek III mentionned in Polish history were his possible successors. -Wysz, mentioned around 850 as 'Lendian duke who left for Serbia'. Mentionned as such by balkan tradition, possible identification also with last white-croatians rulers (though that is very doubtful) -Wlodzislaw, mentionned in 944 by Russian sources as Lendian prince. The last and only relatively certain Lendian ruler I found till date... :( 7c. Wislans On Wislans from 'our' period (that is after the legendary Krak and his daughters who ruled before 750) I can only add that there is a legendary duke Wislaw 'the Beautiful' who is mentionned in legends of the town Wislica. He would have ruled some time after Popiel (the legends make him a descendant of Popiel, doubtful assignment), thus in 10th century, then (long?) before 990's (at that point Wislan land fell to Poland). No other good info here available, only 'powerful unnamed dukes'... 7d. Polans Nothing new to add here, part of the fact that if you remove some of the rulers to either Goplans, Wislans and/or Lendians then a bit less will remain here... At least Siemowit is the first ruler that certainly (if he existed, which is rather certain) ruled the Polans. His legendary predecessors would be then Piast (father) and Choscisko (grandfather) which could have been rulers already, possibly trubutary to the Goplan rulers (Popiels), whome they eventually defeated... As far the Polish stuff, as said: use it as you wish ;) 8. Eastern Slavs I had not much to say on these guys earlier, a few info I found I present here... First a remark though, you have 3 lists with Russian rulers, all the same... why? :confused: tags RUS, KIE and U09. None of these appear from the start in the game as I see... On the tribes: On location: you did not add the Drogovichan tribe, located on and around Turov (would be in or around the Mozyr province methinks). Further my info says that Krivichans had as most important settlements Polotsk and Smolensk, according to that they might have to be moved a bit to west. Then also Viatichians are too much to the south - their homelands were on upper Oka, more in the vicinity of Tula, possibly Ryazan and Kursk thus. Radimiche would be somewhere inbetween them, located on the Soza river which I cannot locate unfortunately... Drevlians and Poljans seem ok. More specific data: -Drevlians, had as capitol Iskerost and Russian chronicher Nestor mentionned one ruler, Nishkin (or Miskin), rulign during first half of 10th century (last ruler before Drevlians fell to Rus apparently) -Volhynians, dunno about their capitol but Lwow is probably wrong, that town did not yet exist. Lutsk is mentionned as capitol of Luchans, with whom Volyhnans are also identified. Only one ruler is mentionned: Wanislaw (aka Wienchislav or Viechislav), ruled during 10th century, another last ruler before Volyhna became part of Rus... -Drogovichans, only info is about their capitol - Turov. -Krivichians, only info is that thus Polotsk and Smolensk were important town, one might be capitol even. They became tributary to Waregs in 881 as say my sources. Nothing more known... -On Radimiches and Viatichians I have nothing to say but their locations... very obscure tribes. -Poljans finally, based around Kiev, legendary founded by brothers Kij, Schek and Choriv, unknown date. In 9th century (probably) Waregian rule or Askold and Dir (Russian historiography usually identified these as slavs and opposed views on Norman origins of Russian dynasty btw. Dunno if that's still the case today, but that view was often followed by eastern european historiography. German tradition always identified these thus as Normans, a view followed in western european historiography) Then around 900 we get the Novgorodian prince Rurik, legendary founder of dynasty (with again the same problem of either Norman or Slavic origin) As far the new info from my side ;) |
Bleh, double post... server doesn't like long posts :p
Btw, no Hungarian/Magyar rulers? I would say finding these should be much easier than to get info on obscure slavic principalities... |
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